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Monte Cook On Fumble Mechanics

Fumble mechanics have been part of the tabletop RPG experience for decades. Even where games don't have a fumble mechanic, many players house rule them in. A fumble is the opposite of a critical hit (or critical success) - its most common manifestation is a roll of 1 in a d20-based game (with a roll of 20 being the critical). Veteran game designer Monte Cook has some thoughts on fumble mechanics, and talks about them and how his Numenera RPG (and all of the Cypher System line) use an "intrusion" instead.

Fumble mechanics have been part of the tabletop RPG experience for decades. Even where games don't have a fumble mechanic, many players house rule them in. A fumble is the opposite of a critical hit (or critical success) - its most common manifestation is a roll of 1 in a d20-based game (with a roll of 20 being the critical). Veteran game designer Monte Cook has some thoughts on fumble mechanics, and talks about them and how his Numenera RPG (and all of the Cypher System line) use an "intrusion" instead.


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It can be a divisive issue. If you're like me, you've experimented with fumble mechanics of various kinds over the years. When I was 12, I remember one character accidentally shooting a fellow character in the back of the head and killing him. Monte Cook's thoughts on the matter are that "we don’t want to run games that “punish” players for rolling bad. A GM intrusion isn’t meant to be “punishment”—it’s meant to make things more interesting. But a fumble, for many people, just seems like a moment for everyone to laugh at them, and that’s not always fun."

If you look around, you'll find dozens of fumble house rules for most games. They clearly provide a draw to those who like to tinker with their games. But many games deliberately do not include any such rule.

You can read the rest of Monte's article here. What are your thoughts on fumble mechanics?
 

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Except when they do. Read some books. High fantasy heroes who save the world, rescue the sexy prince, and conquer the world do sometimes slip in blood, have weapons break, say the wrong thing, and so on.
But they don't have their weapon break as a direct result of failing to swing that sword.

It raises a question of what the die roll is actually modelling, when we make a check. Are we checking how well you swing your sword? Or are we checking everything in the world that could possibly intervene to prevent your task from succeeding?

Is it possible to swing a sword so badly that it causes the enemy to have reinforcements arrive?
 

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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
But they don't have their weapon break as a direct result of failing to swing that sword.

It raises a question of what the die roll is actually modelling, when we make a check. Are we checking how well you swing your sword? Or are we checking everything in the world that could possibly intervene to prevent your task from succeeding?

Is it possible to swing a sword so badly that it causes the enemy to have reinforcements arrive?

It's not a direct result of badly swinging a sword. It's a direct result of rolling a 1. The characters in the fiction aren't rolling 1s. Stuff is just happening.

There could be other ways to tie in unlucky battlefield events (I've written articles on the subject), but associating it with the attacked roll is a decently simply approach which reduces excessive dice rolling.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
But they don't have their weapon break as a direct result of failing to swing that sword.

Nor do PCs who have weapons break over a fumble. The sword was swung and something bad happened.

It raises a question of what the die roll is actually modelling, when we make a check. Are we checking how well you swing your sword? Or are we checking everything in the world that could possibly intervene to prevent your task from succeeding?

Bad luck. I've found that coming up with the form that bad luck takes is best done via DM fiat. That way I can make sure that the effect matches the circumstances in both consistency and fairness. Fumble charts don't take such things into consideration.

Is it possible to swing a sword so badly that it causes the enemy to have reinforcements arrive?
No, but that's not a fumble issue. That's a consistency issue that some games and playstyles enjoy using. Me, I'd almost never have a fumble cause that. I say almost, because I can envision a fumble making a loud noise and alerting nearby creatures which could then come reinforce. That would be an indirect consequence of the fumble, though, not the fumble itself.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I think you misunderstand some of my comment. First, I wasn't using anything "published in Dragon", we were playing the Old Dragon RPG, a d20 System variant.

Ok, cool. I wasn't familiar with that variant.

That being said, it looks like an OSR clone, so the connection to the Dragon magazine article may be more direct than you think.

More importantly, the poor design of the critical miss table wasn't supposed to be the point, and again I know this wasn't an ideal example. I just used the situation because it happened very recently and it would have had a much more plausible result should the DM have in mind the character rolling the natural 1 doesn't need to necessarily cause the bad outcome himself, with his own hands and his own lack of skill. As Cook's article suggests, the DM should be able to use just anything in the environment to cause a bad outcome if it's more plausible/interesting/fun.

I got that part, however, I have two responses to that.

First of all, nothing guarantees that the DMs intrusion is necessarily more plausible, interesting, or fun than referencing a table. When you require a GM to improvise a fiat fumble on a very regular basis, you run a rather high risk that the GM will create results with consequences no one - including the GM - is prepared for or finds fun or that in frustration the GM will throw up his hands and default to a small set of stock results that are easy to resolve.

Secondly, the reason I brought up the poor design of one particular very famous fumble table is that quite often, people with only the experience of badly designed fumble tables and resulting table arguments, will argue that GM intrusion is inherently superior and even necessary because fumble tables always produce unbalanced and illogical results.

UPDATE: And I see that as I was thinking about this, Maxperson posted this very claim in the post above mine.

As I tried to say, I like the idea that a natural 1 should cause some small catastrophe, but there are many situations where the catastrophe couldn't just possibly happen in that particular setup. That's when I think a DM intrusion is useful: the DM rules that you weren't as safe as you anticipated because... a hidden character was watching the whole time and now you're in trouble.

Part of the reason that I'm not a big fan of fumbles as a system wide mechanic that potentially applies to any roll you make, is that quite often the stakes of a roll are such that there is no obvious catastrophe that can happen on failure. In order for situations to occasionally go disastrously wrong regardless of what the situation is, the GM will have to retroactively insert or invent details about the game fiction. An example would be you fail a check to open a lock, and as a result the lock doesn't merely remain closed but the DM invents on the spot a trap, or a second security feature, or a wandering patrol that arrives which didn't formerly exist in the fiction. To me that feels like that opens up too much potential for unfair rulings by the GM, with players being punished for well conceived plans that simply go awry because of random chance.

Now, that's not to say I'm opposed to catastrophic failure if the stakes of the situation demand it. If a player wants to leap across a deep chasm, then obviously the stakes are, "Jump across or fall into pit." If the player tries to get a wand to function, the stakes might be, "Wand functions, wand malfunctions, or nothing happens.", where the degree of success determines between the three results. If the player tries to shoot a giant octopi that another player is grappling with, the stakes might be, "Hit octopus, miss entirely, or hit ally.", again with some mechanic based on degree of success to determine whether you succeed, merely fail, or catastrophically fail. But systems that try to create a universal mechanic of failure, as Cypher and FantasyCraft do, leave me rather cold because as a GM I rather dislike systems that require routine GM intrusion. The risk a player might have feelings hurt because he failed catastrophically (at least with my players) are insignificant compared to a player holding a grudge because he felt I made a wholly unfair fiat ruling. Likewise, since I strive to be the GM I'd like to have as a player, as a player receiving consequences that can't be inferred from the proposition or the stakes strikes me as vastly reducing my agency as a player, as the world starts to behave cartoon world or narrative logic far beyond my ability to control or plan for. That might be OK if we are playing 'Toon', where the whole point is to highlight the funny, but it doesn't necessarily make for good gaming in other genres or styles.

And of course, my personal feelings on whether fumbles are a good idea are not, is still tangential to the main points that whatever you call them, GM intrusions in Cypher are fumbles and bad rolls always punish the player (otherwise, in what sense are they 'bad'?).
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
There could be other ways to tie in unlucky battlefield events (I've written articles on the subject), but associating it with the attacked roll is a decently simply approach which reduces excessive dice rolling.

Reducing the number of dice rolled is nice. However, doing this links "bad thing happening" with "attempt to do good thing". In terms of training (humans are animals, and subject to being trained into behaviors) this is sub-optimal.

We've had other threads, discussing what to do with PCs who are gun-shy, unwilling to take risks. If you couple "bad thing happens to you" to "you try to do stuff", that tends to increase the risk of taking action - and thus give a disincentive to taking action. If bad things are going to happen whether or not the PC takes an action, you don't give a disincentive to the PCs engaging.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Reducing the number of dice rolled is nice. However, doing this links "bad thing happening" with "attempt to do good thing". In terms of training (humans are animals, and subject to being trained into behaviors) this is sub-optimal.

Optimal game design is a very subjective thing. I personally prefer a separate random battlefield event roll at the start of each round, but I can appreciate that some people find fewer die rolls to be a movement towards optimal.
 

Panda-s1

Scruffy and Determined
This Thread said:
"This is important because we don’t want to run games that “punish” players for rolling bad" Does that mean players should never fail ever? omg Monte way to ruin RPG's forever :mad:

Okay I only decided to drop my one comment, but after reading for replies I guess I'll weigh in :/

I don't think having all 1s be failures is... good? Like if you roll a 1 and still pass the DC you should always suceed (as per RAW), and for roleplay purposes make the task barely succeed if you like that kind of thing. I just don't like it when GMs or players use it as an excuse to be sadistic, like Monte points out in the article, or like I said an excuse to devolve into slapstick behavior in what would otherwise be a serious campaign (on another note, I feel like critical successes for skill checks can seem a little silly). But if that's the tone everyone at the table wants, that's different, just understand not everyone likes that kind of tone.

The exception, of course, would be games that are all about that tone, such as Paranoia, but then it's like "oh man Paranoia, what kind of shenanigans are we gonna get into?" "you slip on a banana peel that seems to have come out of nowhere and you fall carrying the 500 lb. computer, crushing yourself" "LOL", as opposed to "oh man D&D what sort of adventures are we gonna get into?" "okay Casanova, on your way to the dragon you try and cook but the pan catches on fire and the flames get in your face and you're horrifically scarred for the rest of your life, take a permanent -4 to your CHA" "wait what".

On a personal note, whenever critical fumbles come up I think about my real life and think "Man, how often do I actually catastrophically fail at things?" It's really not that often, and when I "roll a 1" doing stuff it's not usually something that ends in injury. This is a fantasy game, but I do like comparing core mechanics to real life to gauge how much sense they make.
 

pemerton

Legend
Just more of this cockamamey world in which no one is ever supposed to lose and everyone is supposed to think that only good things happen and/or THEY, specifically and in all cases, are supposed to have "good things" happen to them.
How does one design an actual game if any mechanic that might result in losing is rejected because some players may have their enjoyment impacted?

<snip>

Suppose all poker hands held equal ranking
Whose posts or blog are these meant to be replies to? I've read the blog, and I've read this thread, and no one is talking about players never failing. The discussion is about critical failures.

No edition of D&D has ever had critical fumble rules as part of its core system - does that mean that D&D has never been a game?

In contrast, every edition of Rolemaster (and its spin-offs like MERP and HARP) has had a critical fumble rule as part of its core system - does that mean that D&D players are cry-baby namby-pamby types, and only Rolemaster players are real RPGers?

That whole way of framing a discussion of game design is just silly.

The issue under discussion in the original piece isn't generic failure. It is spectacular, disastrous failure, the archetype being a result imposed such that the player doesn't have any way to mitigate the impact. Not just, "I fail to hit the orc," but, "in failing to hit the orc, I accidentally chop my teammate's leg off."
I think it's not just disastrous failure - it's disastrous failure that makes the player character look comically inept. And when Monte talks about "Bruce feel[ing] bad", he is not just talking about Bruce feeling disappointed about a bad roll - I think he is talking about Bruce feeling bad because he is identifying with his PC who has been painted as incompetent.

If your GM intrusion ever has a chance to cause a player to say "Oh #@$#" then its a fumble and you'd be well served not to pretend otherwise.
Of course we can't perfectly equate action within a movie not created as a result of gameplay to action created as a result of any particular game system, so I can't be 'sure' that Han Solo rolls a 1 whenever he tries to hot wire the blast doors. However, the example is I think still perfectly germane.

Han Solo's player proposes to hot wire the blast doors.
The stakes are either the blast doors remain closed or the blast doors open.
The GM sets the difficulty of this action.
Han Solo's player rolls, but no only does he fail, he fails by some margin that indicates a fumble within the system.
The GM inserts a new complication. Not only do the doors remain closed, but now "matters are worse" - a second set of blast doors closes.

This is I think a very good example of GM fictional intrusion in the event of a fumble. In this example, it doesn't matter whether or not the second set of blast doors even existed prior to the fumble - the GM is empowered to create them in response to the fumble result.
There are any number of ways this sort of event might occur in a RPG, depending on the mechanics of the system. For instance, maybe the player took a bonus die in return for staking a more severe failure.

Or the system might be one in which rolls are always opposed, and the GM rolled a critical success.

But Monte Cook's blog is not about whether or not it makes for good design to have systematic ways of injecting complications; or whether or not the players should sometimes not succeed. It is a criticism of one, particular, mechanic: the critical fumble in which a bad roll always results in the character performing incompetently.

Here's Jonathan Tweet expressing a broadly similar sentiment in his preface to the 20th anniversary edition of Over the Edge:

A simple but powerful improvement you can make to your game is to redefine failure as "things go wrong" instead of "the PC isn't up to the task." Ron Edwards, Luke Crane and other indie RPG designers have championed this idea, and they're exactly right. You can call it "fail forward" or "no whiffing."​

You can assert that there is no significant difference between the RM/MERP-style fumble rules and the sort of system that Cook and Tweet (and their predecessors Edwards, Crane, et al) are advocating. But I don't think that would be the experience of many of those who have played both sorts of system.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Optimal game design is a very subjective thing.

I think I was pretty clear and limited in focus with "in terms of training", as opposed to a very broad, general "optimal game design" statement. Such that, if one is not concerned with what you're training your players to do or not do, then this is a non-issue. I don't think it is appropriate to consider the statement without the qualifier I explicitly included to cover such objections :p
 
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