[Monte Rant] Designers who think they're above roleplay

[Psion]

Thinking about it The Wick's recent attempt "What is That Smell" illustrates both Montes point and mind. It was IMO a mediocre module made by someone who doesn't really play D&D and wrote for it only for the money.

Actually, I am given to understand by posts of someone who plays with him that he DOES play D&D. However, in essence I agree. Someone who goes on an open rant about how he disdains D&D and then trying to sell to that audience is a little off IMO.

 

[Ace]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybeee yall should reread this?

Chill pill taken, I was cranky yesterday, I admit it, but I still think that accusing people who prefer D&D of being unimaginative is a bit much on your part.

if a game designer prefers his Orc and Reindeer game to D&D and refuses to play D&D that is his business and I don't care. But to then turn around (and do what you basically did) and complain about people who don't have the taste (or imagination) to appreciate and play what he considers a better game thus forcing him to do work he does not enjoy, is just sour grapes. Many people are stuck doing work they do not like but it is childish and immature to blame it on the consumer.

Fair enough one apology deserves another. I should have stated my point better.

I wasn't mad at people who play D&D (I do also) or choose it as a first choice (a good one) but at having to choose a second tier choice (at that time 2e D&D) that none of the players really wanted to play because players wouldn't try the other persons first choice even though they hadn't try it at all before.

Was that clear? errrmm I hope so.

Let me add, If it were 3rd edition D&D this would never have come up. 3e is a top choice for all of us in my new group and IMNSHO A hundred times better than 2e.

 

[JESawyer]

Someone who goes on an open rant about how he disdains D&D and then trying to sell to that audience is a little off IMO.

Well... don't you remember the end of that rant? It was all about how he and his comrades were going to show everyone how awesome they were by using Ryan "Master of Puppets" Dancey's foolish attempt at a game against him.

 

[reiella]

Personally, I just feel it's slightly poor taste for a developer to go about and try to sell the product without trying it. But that said, I wouldn't blame them if they didn't play the system at all or even use their books when they did.

It is about getting away from your life, and part of that is usually getting away from work. I know even if I loved a game, I'd prolly get frustrated at spending both my work time and my free/relax time working with it.

Also needs to be a bit careful because designers playing create the dreaded 'designer pet npc' syndrome fairly easily .

So yes I can understand designers wanting to get away from their work. Although it is more comforting to me as a consumer to know that they at least use what they make.

Oh and nice to see you posting here again JESawyer .

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

AFAIK, your assumption is wrong. Many changes were made to 3E during playtesting that were EXACTLY these kind of changes, such as the Paladin being a core class, because the playtesters thought that certain things didn't feel like D&D, even if they worked from a mechanical basis. 3E underwent many dramatic changes based on playtester input...and labeling something as lame was part of their job (after all, if they didn't do it, the customers would, later on...)

I would agree that for module testers, this sort of thing is less likely, and the same would apply to game settings (but mostly due to their lack of emphasis on mechanics).

Thank you for setting me straight. I guess my bias as a game tester does not apply in this situation. I just find it rather odd that things like the various class books happened, and that all of the PrCs and feats were supposedly tested thoroughly. I also feel that playtesters are more inclined to "be nice" to the writers of said material. After all, the playtesters are gettting paid, and their word tends to have less clout than a big name.

It also makes sense to me that if a designer does not play a game, then that game is going to have more flaws than another one made by a different designer who does play the game. If there is a deadline, then only so many flaws can be found by playtesters, because the clock is a'ticking.

I'm not saying that all products made by non-game players will be shoddy, but that it would seem to be a better quality product if a player actually made the game.

 

[jasamcarl]

Ah the splatbooks...

It is common to point to these as a sign of playtest breakdown. Unfortunatly the problem with judging balance is that it is usually not self-evident, especially in a reasonably complex game as D&D. In my mind, having taken in all the subtlies of how an actual game would play out, the splatbooks are actually quite well balanced, but then i come here after the immediate release of a book and note all the righteous 'How could they have missed this?' So who am i to trust? Probably not the kneejerk online poster....

 

[R.X.DIEM]

Re: Ah the splatbooks...

It is common to point to these as a sign of playtest breakdown. Unfortunatly the problem with judging balance is that it is usually not self-evident, especially in a reasonably complex game as D&D. In my mind, having taken in all the subtlies of how an actual game would play out, the splatbooks are actually quite well balanced, but then i come here after the immediate release of a book and note all the righteous 'How could they have missed this?' So who am i to trust? Probably not the kneejerk online poster....

What is a splatbook?pfmi

 

[King_Stannis]

Re: Re: Ah the splatbooks...

What is a splatbook?pfmi

splatbooks are the character class books put out by WotC...."Sword and Fist" (fighters & thieves), "Tome & Blood" (wizards & sorcerers), etc.

see ya friday, "dutch"

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Re: Ah the splatbooks...

It is common to point to these as a sign of playtest breakdown. Unfortunatly the problem with judging balance is that it is usually not self-evident, especially in a reasonably complex game as D&D. In my mind, having taken in all the subtlies of how an actual game would play out, the splatbooks are actually quite well balanced, but then i come here after the immediate release of a book and note all the righteous 'How could they have missed this?' So who am i to trust? Probably not the kneejerk online poster....

You should believe whoever is right. Am I right? Probably not. Thank you for pointing that out. I feel better now that someone put me in my place. Obviously, I needed that. I didn't know the class books were well balanced. Thank you for telling me that, too. Neat. DnD is reasonably complex? Wow. Never would have guessed.

I suppose the fact that I don't like the class books and I rarely use them in my game has no bearing on this discussion then. Neither does the point that it might be slightly advantageous of a designer to play the actual game.

Now I didn't intend to say that the playtesters broke down, or the designers, or the writers, or the printers, janitors or anyone.

Maybe I'm under the mistaken impression that the class books took less time to publish than the Core books. Seems kind of odd considering that they would have more rules to balance with existing rules. But it's okay, I'm probably wrong about that to.

Maybe I should stop posting. Probably a good idea. Considering it's really not a good idea for people to be reading what I write. Maybe I just like communicating. Dang, I must be an idiot...

 

[jasamcarl]

You said it, not I....

The fact that you did not allow it in game more or less proves your ignorance..yes the prcs recieved less playtesting than the core rules, but still more than your provided to it..the problems with their balance must thus be more subtle and REQUIRE in game testing to determine how IN YOUR PARTICULAR CAMPAIGN they might be balanced or not. With diversity comes power-creap, no question, but your inability to make a reasonable tradeoff by actually allowing the rules in game or playtesting them yourself bespeaks of your stubborness. It would be fine if you placed little value in mechanic diversity, but that is not the argument you are making....