[Monte Rant] Designers who think they're above roleplay

[darkbard]

way to go, monte! like your rants, this forum is a place to share ideas and have fun discussing a game we all love. there are some, however, that take things far too seriously or try to alter the flow of discussion to suit their own needs. nice to see a wakeup call from one of the giants of the community.

 

[R.X.DIEM]

Re: Re: Re: I'm curious !

I don't agree. If one doesn't play regularly, at the very least one should be thoroughly conversant with the rules one is writing for. And if one knows the rules that well, one is either a player or a masochist. Why would you know so much about something unless it was very lucrative (and we know RPG designing, in general, is not) or because you loved it? To do otherwise would be senseless.

I agree completely.

 

[Fiery James]

I blame everything on RangerWickett!

Wow, I read the first page when this thread started, and then come back to find 5-pages of lots of stuff going on (would have read sooner, but try to get on the boards during the day!)

First off, I blame everything on Fiery Mike! LOL

Second, as a person involved in the industry (although I'm just in Room 2A of the vast 36-level RPG-Industry dungeon), I've got to say:

How can people not be playing this game? Really? I mean, I do understand how they can not play, but hey - they're missing out. I love it! It's great! And, it's nice to get together with the boys!

Do the FDP gang play once a week? No - but we all wish we did. I'd love to be able to get together that often. We're actually working on a Play-By-Post game, just to keep our jones in check.

One of the best things about this industry is this: Trading stuff with other companies. And seeing all of the other stuff makes me want to play more! We did some fun mix-n-match with Atlas Games' En Route and Beyond the Veil (They couldn't figure out what the hell Monte was doing with that cow in there!)

Plus, we often play "bits" - either single encounters, or sections of an adventure we're working on.

I was all set up to run some CoC this past week, but we went long discussing business - obviously we've got a lot going on in the last while.

Anyway, back to my point - those who aren't playing are really missing out. For me, this is like a second "Golden Age" of D&D, and is quickly ranking right up there with the days that we used to play 3 or 4 times a week!

Blah blah blah.....

- James (really!)

 

[Monte At Home]

For what it's worth, I suspect that the percentage of game designers playing D&D and writing for D&D/d20 is higher than back in the days of 2nd Edition.

(When I came to work for TSR in 1994, there were no D&D games to get involved in. None. So I had to start one.)

 

[jasamcarl]

Monte...

I apologize if that came off as harsh, but your argument was more sympathetic than analytic. You are true, it is a rant, but am i not allowed to be critical? Or must i first place a 'Rant' marker in the subject line?

By compartmentalism i meant a proffessional detachment between one's personal life and work..sorry for the confusion..

Now let me now revise my argument. This actually ties quite nicely in the discussion conscerning product prices..there might well indeed be some degree of market failure here, in which proffessionals are being rewarded despite using an inefficient allocation of their time between design and play. The assumption seems to be that consumers are unable to differentiate product on the shelf based upon quality; i suppose this might be true and contribute to the phenomena we are seeing here. If you had made THAT argument i might have conceded the point..

Night all....

 

[Monte At Home]

Well, let's look at it this way.

2nd Edition. Very few people working on the game were playing it. Many people point to the low quality of some of the products, particularly in the area of game mechanics/balance.

3rd Edition. Far more people working on the game actually playing it. The core rules themselves go through extensive playtests (more than any rpg in history), including extremely intensive playtest by the designers themselves. Most people are pretty happy with it.

I'm not trying to pat myself on the back. It's just the clearest example of playing the game = quality that I can offer.

And when I go to the trouble of making an analytic argument, I don't call it a rant.

 

[jasamcarl]

Fair enough...

I suppose there was a bit of confusion on the term 'play'. I though you were referring to recreational play, but now i see you lump playtesting under the same umbrella. Its a relevant difference, as one of the (IMO wrong) assumptions made is that a designer must LOVE to play the game as oppossed to simply doing so in a pragmatic design context; my bad....

 

[rounser]

The core rules themselves go through extensive playtests (more than any rpg in history), including extremely intensive playtest by the designers themselves.

Relating back to earlier on this thread, what were some of the biggest changes needed to initial drafts of 3E that playtesting revealed?

 

[Holy Bovine]

Well, let's look at it this way.

2nd Edition. Very few people working on the game were playing it. Many people point to the low quality of some of the products, particularly in the area of game mechanics/balance.

3rd Edition. Far more people working on the game actually playing it. The core rules themselves go through extensive playtests (more than any rpg in history), including extremely intensive playtest by the designers themselves. Most people are pretty happy with it.

Who else finds this very interesting about the eventual fall of TSR? 'Very few' people who wrote all those game supplements were actually playing the dang game? I feel that in itself is a prime example of what happens to quality without the designers having some actual play experience.

 

[V-2]

I know of one industry personality who doesn't play RPGs--Loren Wiseman, line editor of GURPS Traveller. He says as much in his CV on the SJG website. He simply likes wargaming better, so that's what he does in his spare time. Oh well. But then, he's a first-hour Traveller veteran, a longtime JTAS editor, and whatnot, so he does know the Traveller rules (and there are many) inside out. Also, I think (but I'm not sure) he hasn't been designing actual RPG material himself in a long time.