[Monte Rant] Designers who think they're above roleplay
- Thread starter Kichwas
- Start date
rounser said:
It does, but there's no magic armor in WoT d20, and except for Armsmen (quasi-Fighters), armor doesn't stack with Defense. In a game like D&D, where AC-enhancing magic is common (whether it's items or magic armor), this has problems. There's the what-stack-with-defense-for-who issue, and the very real fact that a 20th-level Armsman with D&D armor would have an AC 8 points better than a Fighter could.
RangerWickett
Legend
Mike, I figured the statement was absurd enough that no one would think I was being serious, and I figured I was on fairly good standing with FDP. Plus James/Jason/Jingelheimer Smith is a pretty funny fellow himself, so I had hoped to be read in the same light. But if you think it comes across badly, I apologize, and can edit my post.
R.X.DIEM
First Post
Maybeee yall should reread this?
As per Monte, [Boy, this one is going to get me in trouble.
For the longest time, I've tried to be polite. I'd be talking to other game designers or people in the game industry, and they would say, "Well, I don't actually play those games anymore, I just work on them as my day job." I would just smile and nod, as though I understood. But I didn't. In fact, I was aghast.
Well, I'm not going to pretend anymore. I am disappointed and upset.
You would most likely be surprised how common this is. In the corner of the game industry that is d20, I need two hands to count all the game professionals I know who are working on products but do not play the game regularly. I can think of at least a few who -- I'm fairly certain -- have never played a session of 3rd Edition D&D.
Why, there are a surprisingly large number of people just down the street from me at Wizards of the Coast who -- aside from the occasional mandated in-house playtest -- never play the game. And these Wizards people are, as I type this, working on D&D and d20 products. (But this sort of "I don't actually play roleplaying games" comment is far more common from non-d20 and non-Wizards game professionals.)
Now, a lot of these game designers retort, "I'm a professional. I don't need to play the game in order to create products for it." While that is demonstrably true, one has to put the quality of those products in question. This claim of professionalism is akin to a professional novelist who doesn't read, a professional athlete who doesn't train, or a professional accountant who doesn't do his own taxes (okay, I'm just being a silly with that one -- I have no idea if most accountants do their own taxes).
Another excuse might be, "I've been doing this for years. It's all the same. I don't need to keep playing." If you say it, it is so. If you think that all RPG adventures or sourcebooks are the same, then all of them that you write most certainly will be. But those of us who are big enough fans of RPGs to know better... well, we know better. They don't have to all be the same. There's lots of room for innovation and fresh ideas.
Or perhaps the old, "Hey, I have a life now," retort comes up. But there are plenty of people with full-time jobs not in the game industry who also play in a regular roleplaying game. Do these people not have lives? I don't think that's the case. There are thousands of us gamers who manage a family, a career, outside interests, and a weekly (or bi-weekly or monthly) campaign. That excuse just doesn't cut it.
I have to guess that, deep down, these people don't actually like the game they work on anymore. I'm sad to say that, but it's hard to come to another conclusion.
This isn't a condemnation of the industry. I think I'm only talking about a small minority here. And I'm also not talking about people in the industry who work as artists, graphic designers, marketers, sales people, and so on. I'd like to think that these people all have at least tried the games that they do such great work for, but I certainly don't think a weekly campaign is absolutely necessary for them to do their job well.
Here's what you get if you play in a weekly game:
1. You see how people actually play the mechanics, characters, and scenarios that you create.
2. You see where the game is lacking.
3. You encounter ideas and suggestions that you never thought of -- couldn't think of -- just sitting alone in front of a computer.
But the vast majority of you, either game players or game designers, already know this stuff. And of course, I'm not saying that playing the game is the only qualification a good game designer needs. Despite what some people think, not everyone who has ever created a house rule or their own home-brew adventure will necessarily make a great game designer -- although a lot of game companies have started and are starting right now based on that idea.
But that's Another Rant...]
Thanks Monte
As per Monte, [Boy, this one is going to get me in trouble.
For the longest time, I've tried to be polite. I'd be talking to other game designers or people in the game industry, and they would say, "Well, I don't actually play those games anymore, I just work on them as my day job." I would just smile and nod, as though I understood. But I didn't. In fact, I was aghast.
Well, I'm not going to pretend anymore. I am disappointed and upset.
You would most likely be surprised how common this is. In the corner of the game industry that is d20, I need two hands to count all the game professionals I know who are working on products but do not play the game regularly. I can think of at least a few who -- I'm fairly certain -- have never played a session of 3rd Edition D&D.
Why, there are a surprisingly large number of people just down the street from me at Wizards of the Coast who -- aside from the occasional mandated in-house playtest -- never play the game. And these Wizards people are, as I type this, working on D&D and d20 products. (But this sort of "I don't actually play roleplaying games" comment is far more common from non-d20 and non-Wizards game professionals.)
Now, a lot of these game designers retort, "I'm a professional. I don't need to play the game in order to create products for it." While that is demonstrably true, one has to put the quality of those products in question. This claim of professionalism is akin to a professional novelist who doesn't read, a professional athlete who doesn't train, or a professional accountant who doesn't do his own taxes (okay, I'm just being a silly with that one -- I have no idea if most accountants do their own taxes).
Another excuse might be, "I've been doing this for years. It's all the same. I don't need to keep playing." If you say it, it is so. If you think that all RPG adventures or sourcebooks are the same, then all of them that you write most certainly will be. But those of us who are big enough fans of RPGs to know better... well, we know better. They don't have to all be the same. There's lots of room for innovation and fresh ideas.
Or perhaps the old, "Hey, I have a life now," retort comes up. But there are plenty of people with full-time jobs not in the game industry who also play in a regular roleplaying game. Do these people not have lives? I don't think that's the case. There are thousands of us gamers who manage a family, a career, outside interests, and a weekly (or bi-weekly or monthly) campaign. That excuse just doesn't cut it.
I have to guess that, deep down, these people don't actually like the game they work on anymore. I'm sad to say that, but it's hard to come to another conclusion.
This isn't a condemnation of the industry. I think I'm only talking about a small minority here. And I'm also not talking about people in the industry who work as artists, graphic designers, marketers, sales people, and so on. I'd like to think that these people all have at least tried the games that they do such great work for, but I certainly don't think a weekly campaign is absolutely necessary for them to do their job well.
Here's what you get if you play in a weekly game:
1. You see how people actually play the mechanics, characters, and scenarios that you create.
2. You see where the game is lacking.
3. You encounter ideas and suggestions that you never thought of -- couldn't think of -- just sitting alone in front of a computer.
But the vast majority of you, either game players or game designers, already know this stuff. And of course, I'm not saying that playing the game is the only qualification a good game designer needs. Despite what some people think, not everyone who has ever created a house rule or their own home-brew adventure will necessarily make a great game designer -- although a lot of game companies have started and are starting right now based on that idea.
But that's Another Rant...]
Thanks Monte
Re: Maybeee yall should reread this?
If I can add to Montes Rant, I think I understand a little of the frustration the won't game writers must feel.
There are a lot of gamers out there who do not like D&D, don't want to play D&D but are stuck either finding another job or writing for it.
Back when 2e is was new I played a lot of 2e and loathed it, yes I loathed it.
Why did I play. Compromise thats why
I finally get my gaming buddies together (there were about a dozen I gamed with on a regualr basis and another twenty out there.) there would be a huge arguement that would go something like this
#1 What do you guys want to play
#2 Rolemaster
#3 GURPS
#4 Harn
#5 GURPS Sucks
#4 Rulemaster No way
Twenty minutes later -- How about D&D then
#1 Sigh OK
No one really wanted to play D&D but there we were.
I suspecta lot of those game writers would rather be supporting another line but none of the lines will sell more to more than (Wild a**ed guess) 5000 or so buying players
A D&D (or D20) book has a possible audience of well more than 20 times that.
Guess who gets the money.
Its really sad actually. A lot of gamers can't play the games they would like because of unimaginative gamers or players to set in their way to branch out a little.
R.X.DIEM said:
If I can add to Montes Rant, I think I understand a little of the frustration the won't game writers must feel.
There are a lot of gamers out there who do not like D&D, don't want to play D&D but are stuck either finding another job or writing for it.
Back when 2e is was new I played a lot of 2e and loathed it, yes I loathed it.
Why did I play. Compromise thats why
I finally get my gaming buddies together (there were about a dozen I gamed with on a regualr basis and another twenty out there.) there would be a huge arguement that would go something like this
#1 What do you guys want to play
#2 Rolemaster
#3 GURPS
#4 Harn
#5 GURPS Sucks
#4 Rulemaster No way
Twenty minutes later -- How about D&D then
#1 Sigh OK
No one really wanted to play D&D but there we were.
I suspecta lot of those game writers would rather be supporting another line but none of the lines will sell more to more than (Wild a**ed guess) 5000 or so buying players
A D&D (or D20) book has a possible audience of well more than 20 times that.
Guess who gets the money.
Its really sad actually. A lot of gamers can't play the games they would like because of unimaginative gamers or players to set in their way to branch out a little.
Wicht
Hero
Re: Re: Maybeee yall should reread this?
Yeah and a lot of cola bottlers are stuck bottling coke or pepsi because people with no taste refuse to branch out a little and experiment with other brands. And a lot of poor guys who want to open up a little hot dog stand are stuck managing McDonalds because thats where people with who with no imagination eat. Life is tough that way. My heart bleeds I am sure.
Seriously, many of us, I know, have branched out (Have you seen the interest in CoC lately) and come back to DnD not because we have no imagination but because its like a first crush or an old reliable that is always there for you. Or were you not trying to insult most of the posters on this board
Ace said:
Yeah and a lot of cola bottlers are stuck bottling coke or pepsi because people with no taste refuse to branch out a little and experiment with other brands. And a lot of poor guys who want to open up a little hot dog stand are stuck managing McDonalds because thats where people with who with no imagination eat. Life is tough that way. My heart bleeds I am sure.
Seriously, many of us, I know, have branched out (Have you seen the interest in CoC lately) and come back to DnD not because we have no imagination but because its like a first crush or an old reliable that is always there for you. Or were you not trying to insult most of the posters on this board
