[Monte Rant] Designers who think they're above roleplay

[rounser]

There are so many things that people accept as "common truths" about D&D3 that don't hold up in actual play.

Could you provide some examples?

 

[R.X.DIEM]

Amen brother

Oh yes he does. Most definitely he needs to either play or run a game. The best ideas I've had have all come as a result of playing or running the game.

I bet you $10 that I can pick up a d20 product and figure out in 5 minutes if the designer regularly plays D&D.

There are so many things that people accept as "common truths" about D&D3 that don't hold up in actual play.

I completely agree! I'll toss another $10 also!

 

[JESawyer]

By the way, what Monte is saying is just as frustrating in CRPG environments. I hate talking to people who develop CRPGs and finding that a) they never play the PnP version of the game they license b) they never play PnP games c) they stopped playing PnP games but keep making CRPGs with their head in the sand or d) they don't even play CRPGs. It's pretty lame, but somehow, a lot of people get away with it.

 

[R.X.DIEM]

Re: I'm curious !

With so many people involved in the RPG industry on the forum. How many of you agree that you really don't have to play any of the games to make a good, playable, imaginative product? Well, all you gaming GODS out there. I waiting for some replies!

 

[rounser]

A game designer doesnt really need to play. He just needs someone else to play his stuff to make sure it works.

I imagine that "making it work" is not all there is to it, Doc. I'd expect that if the entire premise or direction of the product (or many of it's elements) is flawed, playtesting can't really fix that by tweaking game balance considerations alone.

Playtesters are effectively testers, and if software projects are any judge, by the time testing occurs it's too late to turn back.

Deadlines and money mean that you probably can't ditch large parts of the product (or the entire thing) by the time it reaches playtesting. So no, I don't think playtesting fully compensates for the designer, product manager or editors not knowing what they're doing.

 

[JESawyer]

I imagine that "making it work" is not all there is to it, Doc. I'd expect that if the entire premise or direction of the product (or many of it's elements) is flawed, playtesting can't really fix that by tweaking game balance considerations alone.

Ding, ding.

 

[God]

Don't you have a game to work on Sawyer?

love,
God

 

[JESawyer]

Don't you have a game to work on Sawyer?

love,
God

Two, technically, though on IWD2, all I'm doing now is going, "Yeah, keep up the good work, guys! Anyone need any help?"

*crickets chirping*

 

[mearls]

Could you provide some examples?

1. The inflating hit point myth. Characters who face challenges comparable to their level go through hit points *fast*, especially at high levels. A reasonably strong monster with a rend or improved grab ability will dish out 40 hit points of damage per round. While base attack bonus progresses in a linear manner, AC has an extremely shallow slope. Heck, after 5th level its almost completely flat.

2. The D&D does not promote roleplaying myth. The only gaming groups I've seen who engage in supposedly stereotypical D&D behavior (invading dungeons and mindlessly killing stuff) have been young kids just starting out. I've played dozens of different games and have seen no trend that indicates D&D players roleplay any more or less than people who play other games.

3. The D&D xp system promotes combat myth. I've yet to meet a DM who did not award xp for overcoming situations without combat.

4. Lots of little issues that seem to have blown over: the 5 foot step and fire a missile weapon or cast a spell thing, combat, the entire supposed issue of the rules being too hard to learn. Heck, I still haven't memorized how to resolve a bull rush or trip attack, but I don't need to since the PHB is so easy to reference.

I know there's more, but the brain is slowing down a bit. It's been a long day!

 

[rounser]

While base attack bonus progresses in a linear manner, AC has an extremely shallow slope. Heck, after 5th level its almost completely flat.

Doesn't the Wheel of Time d20 game provide AC that scales with level? Might provide a solution for the "too easy to hit/get hit at high level" thing, but that would throw CR/EL out of whack probably...