D&D 5E Moral Quandry Over Possible DM Failures?

[TerraDave]

The problem here is that the DM can have you fight anything he wants and give you any treasure he wants. This is not unethical, nor is it against the rules, nor is it a failure. In fact, its very important for the game to work that the DM has this discretion.

Now, you should still enjoy playing, or you should not play. Is there some other way to express your issues, from the point of view of your own enjoyment? Are the encounters really too hard? Is the treasure to stingy? Is there something else?

 

[Kikuras]

It is my understanding that this particular DM is experienced with previous editions of D&D, I'm guessing with a focus on 2e and possibly some 3.5. He runs the table well, as well as I would expect any experienced DM, as far as interacting with players, pacing combat, and running RP. This is stuff that makes a darn good DM, and which is why I like him. But there seems to be a lack, or total disregard for even the simplest of rules.

You're right that he can throw anything at us, and kill us on a whim, but if nothing else I expect to be rewarded appropriately, specifically with the ability for my character to grow and be able to handle the next battle. I shouldn't walk away with less than 1/3 the XP.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Some DMs want to leap right to epic action at low level and don't realize that it doesn't translate well. Killing ogres and trolls is all well and good for high level PCs but quickly kills low level ones. On the other hand placing significant challenges and rewards in the hands of low level PCs can be an interesting twist, if done properly.

 

[billd91]

I'll echo that there's nothing inherently wrong with what the DM is doing... assuming that people are enjoying the game. But if they're not, it's OK to ask him to adjust. Just make sure that other players are feeling the same way.

But even if people are enjoying the game for the most part, it's still OK to ask questions and that fact that you're all new to this edition gives you an easy in-road to a discussion about how it is being used. Go ahead and tell the DM that you're trying to understand the expectations of 5e and how the rules work and the encounters you're getting aren't really helping you do that. Ask him to elaborate on how he puts an encounter together and plans the loot. Basically, analyze a previous encounter with him so that you can understand where he's coming from as a DM and how that relates to 5e.

 

[Dausuul]

The DM is not a slave to the rulebooks. Everything you list here is something that I have done, and under the right circumstances would do again. The question is not whether your DM is "breaking the rules," but whether it's creating problems in the game.

Encountering monsters well above the party's level is fine. My players would be bored stiff if I stuck to the encounter guidelines. But when I go way beyond party level, I don't force them into a straight-up fight and I make sure they know how powerful the threat is. I may put a low-level party in an ancient dragon's lair; if I do, however, the ancient dragon doesn't attack them on sight, and I make it clear just how big and scary the dragon is. If they choose to attack anyway, the ensuing TPK is their own fault for being cosmically stupid. If you're being forced into fights so tough that the DM has to bail you out of them, you should discuss that with the DM.

Adjusting XP awards? Absolutely. I don't even use XP any more. The party levels up when I say so. However, if you feel like you're leveling up too slowly, that's an issue you should bring up.

Making up my own magic items? Not tailoring the loot to the party? You betcha. If you want a specific magic item in my game, you need to take action in the game world to go and find it. Ask around. Do research. You can get what you want, but it doesn't fall into your lap. That said, if the DM hands out items so potent that they overshadow the PCs using them, that can be an issue; and if you didn't find even one usable item out of 16, the DM might not be providing enough variety in the items.

I strongly recommend framing your concerns in terms of making the game better, rather than "You need to follow the rules." That never goes over well.

 

[Trit One-Ear]

While I agree that the DM has a lot of flexibility when it comes to what rules to use, I agree that in changing larger core rules/guidelines (such as xp, what the standard combat difficulty is, etc) especially in a new system, warrants some kind of group discussion before hand. It's all about managing (and then subverting) player expectations. For example, if he said he was going to change the XP numbers before this deadly encounter, then a smaller XP reward probably wouldn't have bothered you as much.

Something of importance to me, however, that no one else has brought up is playing to the edition/game instead of against it. 5e is one of the most flexible tabletops I've played in regards to play style, which I love. I have in the past, however, played a few one-shot 4E games with a good friend DMing. He cut his teeth on 3rd when he was younger, and playing 4E as if it were 3rd got under my skin. If you feel this is similar, with the DM running 5E against it's core, that's a legitimate feeling.

Ultimately for me, if my group gathered with the intent to explore for 5E feels for the first time, I would expect (either as a DM or a player) a certain amount of adherence to the rules… at first. As everyone else says, nothing in the books is sacred, but IMO it takes a little time to try out what you want to keep vs. what you want to change.

If you feel comfortable doing so in a non-confrontational way, I would bring up some of your… let's not say concerns, but confusions outside of a game session. If he responds positively, or is open to adjusting the way he runs the game, great. If not, you can decide if you're able/want to adjust your expectations of the game and can try to enjoy his different way of running things.

Trit

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

There rules are there to facilitate having fun. If breaking the rules makes more fun for the table go for it. If not talk to the Dm about it. If you are the only one having issues the game style may not be your bag.

 

[iserith]

I need to crowd-source some wisdom concerning table ethics.

I was invited to join a group for 5e hosted by my brother-in-law, a good friend of his would act as DM. Disappointed by the conceptualization of 4e, and tired of the crunchiness of 3.5, I was eager to play. Suffice it to say this was everyone's first go at 5e, so it was pretty well understood that we would have to learn a lot as we went along, including the DM. Anyway, we were a few sessions in when I started to suspect some fishy stuff. Orcs had higher ACs, and the DM was making up items, both mundane and magical. The deal was sealed when our party of 5 level-3 characters, and a level 2 were pitted against 7 ogres and a troll (and an undead assassin with a 22 AC for three rounds). We survived, barely, with 4 of the ogres fleeing... and each player waled away with 550 XP.

DMs are free to create or adjust monsters and magical items. Is your objection that they were different from what was in the book?

DMs are not required to present "level-appropriate" encounters in this or any other edition of the game.

The XP reward does seem low for such an encounter and that's a fair objection in my view. Unless there's something like 7 to 9 PCs.

To add insult to injury, we had come across a treasure trove (inappropriate for our level), which contained about 16 magic items (very inappropriate considering the general attitude of magic items in 5e), some insanely powerful, some essentially pointless, none were really fitted for the party (my character walked away with 0/16 items due to lack of usefulness), and NONE came out of the DMG. I know he's running a 2e module, and perplexed by the array of magic items, I went to go see if they were legacy items, but they're not in the module either.

There are no real guidelines for what is "level-appropriate" treasure in D&D 5e. The DM can place whatever he or she likes. This seems like another objection that what you saw in game was different from in the book and/or that you didn't get any of those magic items. There is no requirement that the DM must use items that are from the book.

Much like getting shorted on XP, getting shorted on magic items is also a valid objection worth addressing in my view.

So what do I do? I like the DM, he spins a good yarn, and he runs the table well, but there's a distinct break from 5e rules that has got my panties in a bunch. Do I just bear it and hope he fixes it in the future? Do I surreptitiously drop hints to my brother-in-law that not is all well? Should I maybe pass a note at our next session? DMing isn't easy, I respect anyone who is going to take the time and effort to do it, and I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but made-up magic items that don't fit the party, short-changing XP, and multiple 'deadly' encounters seems like a bit much to deal with.

I can see no rules being broken here. There appears to be an issue with rewards, however. So I would address that directly and politely with the DM and ask for his help in rectifying it. After discussing that, then talk about how your expectation was that he would be using level-appropriate encounters, magic items out of the books, and un-adjusted monsters and see what he says. If you feel it would improve your game experience for him use those things, tell him and be willing to meet the guy halfway.

It sounds like your group didn't have a Session Zero, a pre-game page-setting session where everyone discusses their expectations for the campaign. It's never too late to have this discussion if the group feels it would help smooth out any rough edges. Check that link I just gave you for guidelines on how to conduct one and an actual transcript of a Session Zero that was held for my most recent campaign.

Good luck!

 

[Skyscraper]

Generally, I see little problem with what you're saying. There appears to be these problems you identify:

1) Too many magic items: however, most don't fit the group, so in the end your group has little magic items to actually equip your PCs with.

Problem appears moot from the get go.

2) Not enough magic items of those found, fit the PCs.

Hmmm. This is related to #1. It seems like this DM isn't about designing magic items for PCs, but more about using magic items as dungeon dressing. Seems OK to me. If you feel frustrated that you find a hoard of items and none fit your PC, think that this hoard might have been absent altogether. Or, if a wand of magic missile was found while there is no wizard if your group, but you found no +2 great axe for your barbarian, then perhaps you can rethink how much of the adventure should shape itself around your PCs. (No offense intended, I'm throwing a line here.)

3) Overpowered encounters

You seem to indicate that your party vanquished the 7 ogres and troll and assassin with super AC. So, was the encounter really overpowered then?

Even if it was, will your party perhaps consider how to approach dungeon crawling from now on, and perhaps change its tactics to move stealthily to hopefully avoid deadly encounters with a dozen ogres and mega-assassins? Or, learn to flee if opposed by a force that is too strong?

Having level-equivalent encounters, every time you meet monsters, is something that is relatively recent in D&D history. Welcome to old school

4) Not enough XP for the encounter

The DM apparently chose a slower level advancement rate. Seems fair game to me.

CONCLUSION

I see little problem in the game you're describing. More, you seem to like the game and its story, which seems like the important stuff.

However, you seem to have a rigid expectation of what the game "should be". I would try to rid myself of that expectation and play the game that the DM proposes. Forget the meta-game: rules for balancing encounters, expected magic item findings, XP advancement rate, etc.. You'll have even more fun.

If there remains something that you really think should be fixed, then you can consider talking to him about it. For example, "you know, Joe, I really like your game. I like the story, I like the pacing, and I like how you play out your NPCs. If I may, however, ask a question: how do you feel about your decision of letting us find a powerful artifact at level 1? Because suddenly, in battles, it feels like we have one level 1 PC artificially boosted to level 5, and four level 1 PCs that trail this guy as a support cast. Well, maybe not that much, but you know what I mean? What are your thoughts about this, and am I missing anything?"

 

[Mallus]

The campaign kinda sounds... fun?!. In a very (stereotypical) old-school random hella-difficult (but what skills are really being challenged??) sort of way. It seems you know what you're in for, so if you can keep you expectations in check and moderate the frustration that goes along with that kind of set-up/tone, I'd say stick with it.