• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Mordenkainens Magnificent Emporium saved by last minute adventurers?

This smacks of control-freak DM-ing. If you're going to run a world in which tens of items are found every level (and most eventually sold), and items are made in the course of story constantly, it's just inconsistent to presume that the PC's can't eventually find many items. There's a big difference between intervening as a matter of exception (because some items are simply broken) and doing it as a rule.

If you feel that items don't fit in your campaign, there's a fine rule variant; the inherent bonuses. You seem to presume that everyone shares this preference for every campaign.

As to the item rarity system; well, I feel that the pricing wasn't thought out well, that it was introduced poorly (making most items uncommon), and that I strongly disapprove of errata such as this which have major changes to expectations halfway through a game. I hate them as a player, and I find them completely unacceptable as a DM (bye-bye consistency). To pour salt in the open wound, it's an entirely unnecessary change. As are so many of the errata.
I repeat it again for you:

I hate inherent bonuses! This is no solution for me, as I told you before (on page 3)... and I don´t know where you make the conclusion, that I don´t like to give out magic items... some people seem to draw conclusions...

And no, I am no control freak DM, I think the rarity system allows more freedom. I want to give out items like candy. I want to encourage players to use the items they get... and you know what, not once a player told me that i am a control freak...

I want to make items that are flat out better than the norm, without worrying about any pricing...

I would not mind, if a player gets a +2 to damage item, i would even not mind, if he gets two or three of them... i also would not mind, if a player asks me, if he can turn the green dragon scale into an armorthat protects him from acid...

I would however mind, if someone created 30 level 1 items with a daily power and switches them around to squeeze out every little bonus...

I would mind, if i could not give my players an item that alllows him to do things he would not be able to do without an item of fear, that he just replicates the item and suddenly everyone in the group has it, because I set the price too low...

And I would mind if a player says: "hey, I do not need to collect dragon scales... the rules say, i can create the item without any component but gold..."

After all it is a roleplaying game, and good roleplayers like to interact with the enviroment... like to experiment (IMHO and IME of course)

Maybe you belong to a different group of (role)players... but don´t tell me I am a control freak just because I like the rarity system...

Its the immersion of your players into the story which should be the goal of a good DM... every rule element which takes away immersion is a bad one... and the magic item rules are better with uncommon items and components that are uncommon...

If you like a game where you can just cherry pick your equippment, play diablo... hey wait, diablo would not be that addictive, if you could just buy all those rare items...


[MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION]: it is ok to disagree. ;)
I just want to adress a certain point: In my opinion there is no way you can win D&D, you can just lose... and one of the fun parts of interaction (for me as a player) was finding an item and distributing it in the group in a way to have the best effect... and i like the random systems best... the random tables are a rule element i honestly miss... I really don´t mind if PCs are very lucky and find a +3 lightning sword at level 3...
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

One other thing. If a player said to me that they REALLY wanted a specific uncommon or rare item, I would find a way in the story for them to either find one or be able to buy one. But because the uncommons and rares are under the DM control, I can make the choice to let them have one without opening up the can of cheese of players buying a whole bunch of an item that has a useful encounter power and using the power five times in one encounter.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
The nice thing is, if you don't like the rarity system, just ignore that little word in the upper-right corner and carry on as before. Problem solved.
That would work fine, provided that the "uncommon"/"rare" label isn't used as an excuse not to bother to balance the thing properly. As happened with the crazy "creation word" things that were in Dragon shortly after the "rarity" system was announced. If the "rarity" was in addition to a proper balancing system, it would be all good - not necessary, but a valid option. But if "rarity" is just a code for "untested for balance" the whole system goes down the tubes.

[MENTION=27160]Balesir[/MENTION]: it is ok to disagree. ;)
I just want to adress a certain point: In my opinion there is no way you can win D&D, you can just lose... and one of the fun parts of interaction (for me as a player) was finding an item and distributing it in the group in a way to have the best effect... and i like the random systems best... the random tables are a rule element i honestly miss... I really don´t mind if PCs are very lucky and find a +3 lightning sword at level 3...
Yeah, I know it's impossible to "win" D&D, but there are several aspects built into it that trigger the "competitor bone" in some folk - I feel the pull of it myself. The "good" expression of that I see when my players compete to come up with "cool moves" during encounters that get all the other players going "oooh!" The bad side is when compulsive optimisers abuse rules that are really not designed to cope with optimisation.

One other thing. If a player said to me that they REALLY wanted a specific uncommon or rare item, I would find a way in the story for them to either find one or be able to buy one. But because the uncommons and rares are under the DM control, I can make the choice to let them have one without opening up the can of cheese of players buying a whole bunch of an item that has a useful encounter power and using the power five times in one encounter.
OK, but in that case, why not dispense with the "please may I" nonsense and just give a token that says "each character may have one of these items"? Or some similar mechanism that does not require the disingenuous courting of the DM for parts of the character you want to play? That's all I'm saying, here - change the system, fine, but leave the item selection (within the restrictions created in the rules) to the player, not the DM.
 

That would work fine, provided that the "uncommon"/"rare" label isn't used as an excuse not to bother to balance the thing properly. As happened with the crazy "creation word" things that were in Dragon shortly after the "rarity" system was announced. If the "rarity" was in addition to a proper balancing system, it would be all good - not necessary, but a valid option. But if "rarity" is just a code for "untested for balance" the whole system goes down the tubes.

Yeah, I know it's impossible to "win" D&D, but there are several aspects built into it that trigger the "competitor bone" in some folk - I feel the pull of it myself. The "good" expression of that I see when my players compete to come up with "cool moves" during encounters that get all the other players going "oooh!" The bad side is when compulsive optimisers abuse rules that are really not designed to cope with optimisation.

OK, but in that case, why not dispense with the "please may I" nonsense and just give a token that says "each character may have one of these items"? Or some similar mechanism that does not require the disingenuous courting of the DM for parts of the character you want to play? That's all I'm saying, here - change the system, fine, but leave the item selection (within the restrictions created in the rules) to the player, not the DM.

Here's the thing man. Neither DMs nor players are perfect in any game. DMs however have a vast array of ways in which they can already screw over players. EVERYTHING YOU DO as a player is effectively at the option of the DM. It is silly IMHO to imagine that somehow because by default you're allowed to make vorpal swords that this is an amazing empowerment of the player. It isn't. It is just an annoyance to the DM. I'd be perfectly happy to say it is 6 of one and half-a-dozen of the other except we've already outlined all the substantive material ways in which rarity actually improves the system IN PLAY every day. Actually I haven't even touched on 3/4s of its benefits but I kind of figure I don't even really need to do so.

In short, who gets to decide which items are going to be crafted by default is simply a preference. If one rule allows the item subsystem of the game to function in a much better way than from a game designer point of view that is the way that it needs to work. From a standpoint of preferences you're never going to please everyone, but you can at least provide a game that is most mechanically flexible and provides the widest variety of options.

Personally I think that is CLEARLY the system we have now. I have no desire to see that degraded because hypothetically there's some idiot somewhere who's ALREADY A HORRIBLE DM who's going to abuse some rule. No good will come of taking that one rule out of his hands, none at all.
 

eamon

Explorer
And no, I am no control freak DM, I think the rarity system allows more freedom. I want to give out items like candy. I want to encourage players to use the items they get... and you know what, not once a player told me that i am a control freak...
You're right, that was excessive. But still - that's freedom for the DM at the cost of freedom for the players. The DM controls what's available in detail, and since the vast majority of items are uncommon, that means the DM has day-to-day control over items.

I want to make items that are flat out better than the norm, without worrying about any pricing...
I've got no problem with that. As said, I don't think the rarity system is necessarily flawed, but it is flawed as executed in 4e. If the uncommon items were common, and rare items reserved for unique discoveries, that'd be fine by me.

I would however mind, if someone created 30 level 1 items with a daily power and switches them around to squeeze out every little bonus...
That doesn't bother me either. I kind of like creative solutions, and if you use lots of cheap tools to get what you need, that's fine. You'll need that ingenuity to take on the big guns.

And buy and large, that works, but it's dependent on the game to ensure that the items aren't trivially abusable in this fashion. E.g. old-style potions of clarity of low level used at high level. By and large most items don't have this problem.

I would mind, if i could not give my players an item that alllows him to do things he would not be able to do without an item of fear, that he just replicates the item and suddenly everyone in the group has it, because I set the price too low...
Nobodies stopping you from doing that: I'm saying the game should force the DM to do this all the time. Most items I'm A-OK with millions of copies being made. It's irrelevant. Unless they're fighting an army, in which case perhaps it's a smart move (or a waste of their talents...).

The problem with the rarity system is that it's terrible in practice. The idea's fine, and as Balesir points out, it's pretty much indistinguishable from minor artifacts. But you shouldn't be making 99% of all items into arbitrary DM fiat.

I just want to adress a certain point: In my opinion there is no way you can win D&D, you can just lose... and one of the fun parts of interaction (for me as a player) was finding an item and distributing it in the group in a way to have the best effect... and i like the random systems best... the random tables are a rule element i honestly miss... I really don´t mind if PCs are very lucky and find a +3 lightning sword at level 3...
I also quite like random treasure - see my sig for a means of balancing its use in the game. Balanced random treasure in 4e is incidentally dependant on the absence of the rarity system as currently executed.

My preferred houserule: All uncommon items are actually common, barring specific DM exceptions.
 

eamon

Explorer
Here's the thing man. Neither DMs nor players are perfect in any game. DMs however have a vast array of ways in which they can already screw over players. EVERYTHING YOU DO as a player is effectively at the option of the DM.
The system should not be a trap for the DM, nor should it require the DM to know the PC-creation-rules better than the PC's. The item rarity rules do require an expert DM to use well, or expect largely nonsense treasure.

The item rarity rules as currently implemented require more DM game knowledge to DM well; or it makes the game even more dependent on item wishlists, which I really detest.
 


eamon

Explorer
But magical items are no player rule... we are not playing a dress up game...
Magic Items are in player control. They can craft them, and the (terrible) default suggestion is for players to make wishlists and for the DM to pick items from these wishlists. Magic items are also essential to many characters, and (together with feats) one of the few area's in which 4e PC's can really be customized.

With the rarity system, all this is essentially unchanged, except that the item pool becomes bland and biased towards essentials classes, and that older books are worth less.

There are alternatives, and I'm sure your games are quite fun, but wishlists and fairly detailed player control of items are not unusual in by-the-book 4e.
 

The system should not be a trap for the DM, nor should it require the DM to know the PC-creation-rules better than the PC's. The item rarity rules do require an expert DM to use well, or expect largely nonsense treasure.

The item rarity rules as currently implemented require more DM game knowledge to DM well; or it makes the game even more dependent on item wishlists, which I really detest.

Yeah, I just disagree that this is the case. There are as many traps inherent in the original 4e magic system as there are in the rarity system, but the rarity system has fixed a number of problems.

1) You noted above that there 'very few items' that are a problem There's a good reason for this, all the ones that were a problem were nerfed practically to irrelevance. The original system left VERY little room for developers to work in, it was a very constrained design space. Every item needed to be made such that any number of cheap copies of it wouldn't cause an issue. The result was bland items.

2) Another constraint on the design space was the requirement that daily item uses be restricted to a small number. This means that players don't really have the option to use daily item powers which are not competitive. Only a narrow range of daily item powers are thus viable and many interesting powers which would be somewhat useful if allowed once per day are simply ignored because they now have to compete not only with other items that could go into the same slot, but the daily powers of ALL other items the character might have. This is too constraining.

3) From a fluff perspective you can't easily achieve a setting where magic items aren't a commonplace commodity. Higher level PCs can simply churn out 100's of instances of lower level items. Even if this isn't something the PCs want to spend their own treasure on you can't really justify any sort of low availability of lower level items. The only thing you can do that logically makes sense is to make low level items almost worthless, but that doesn't work either because low level PCs need good interesting items that are effective for them at the levels they can acquire them. Every garden variety NPC bad guy that has any possibility of being able to craft items (and it is hard to see how many of them wouldn't) would logically festoon his henchmen with useful googaws.

The original system thus really only catered to a very narrow range of possibilities in any logical fashion. It also only allowed for a narrow and bland range of item designs and almost inevitably resulted in most PCs filling their slots with a few fairly optimal choices, leaving the rest as "stuff we didn't really want, but the DM gave it out in treasure, so we'll make do".

Given the realities of the economics of making items in the first place ironically the characters were STILL mostly dependent on the DM to give them the good stuff anyway, but the system had to bear the disadvantages of the loopholes and limitations forced on it by the way it worked.

I just don't personally think it was in any way a good trade off. I don't disagree that the existing inventory of items in 4e doesn't really exploit the current rarity system terribly well, but there is obviously a limit to what the dev team can put out in a given amount of time. Since books pretty well have a year lead time such is the situation. At least you have choices now, you can use the old system, you can use the new system and gain some of the benefits, and you can also draw up some better items to add to it (and there are some excellent lists online as people have pointed out).

Finally, as a guy who's played D&D since the very earliest days of the game I don't actually think the whole 'bad DM' thing holds a lot of water. DMs managed to give out useful and interesting items in 1e AD&D when the system was MUCH more dependent on items as a way to distinguish your character and there was no such thing as player control and no such thing as a viable way to craft anything much either. Sure, there were people who had complaints against DMs WRT item distribution, but overall the system worked. At least the items were really interesting for the most part.

Obviously no one approach is going to please everyone, but I think the rarity system took a huge step in eliminating some glaring flaws. Beyond that you can still do virtually the same thing with it you could do before, so it seems both better (to me) and is more flexible in general.
 

eamon

Explorer
Yeah, I just disagree that this is the case. There are as many traps inherent in the original 4e magic system as there are in the rarity system, but the rarity system has fixed a number of problems.

1) You noted above that there 'very few items' that are a problem There's a good reason for this, all the ones that were a problem were nerfed practically to irrelevance. The original system left VERY little room for developers to work in, it was a very constrained design space. Every item needed to be made such that any number of cheap copies of it wouldn't cause an issue. The result was bland items.
I think you're exaggerating the magnitude of this issue. Most items aren't interesting to copy in 100's of numbers. Any slotted item, for instance, is largely uninteresting to have many of around. Item powers are also balanced by the fact that they don't generally scale with level or (if weapons/implements) that they require you to hit with that weapon/implement or at least wield it - meaning you pretty much have to be wielding a level-appropriate items since the cheaper versions have too low an enhancement bonus. And to the extend that items become out-of-combat toolkits, this isn't necessarily problematic, although you'd want to consider it.

2) Another constraint on the design space was the requirement that daily item uses be restricted to a small number. This means that players don't really have the option to use daily item powers which are not competitive. Only a narrow range of daily item powers are thus viable and many interesting powers which would be somewhat useful if allowed once per day are simply ignored because they now have to compete not only with other items that could go into the same slot, but the daily powers of ALL other items the character might have. This is too constraining.
But this restriction is again entirely artificial. Most of these daily powers would be fine if players could use several each day.

3) From a fluff perspective you can't easily achieve a setting where magic items aren't a commonplace commodity. Higher level PCs can simply churn out 100's of instances of lower level items. Even if this isn't something the PCs want to spend their own treasure on you can't really justify any sort of low availability of lower level items. The only thing you can do that logically makes sense is to make low level items almost worthless, but that doesn't work either because low level PCs need good interesting items that are effective for them at the levels they can acquire them. Every garden variety NPC bad guy that has any possibility of being able to craft items (and it is hard to see how many of them wouldn't) would logically festoon his henchmen with useful googaws.
I see where you're coming from, and the criticism makes sense. I just don't think it's particularly problematic. D&D has always had rules that, when interpreted on a broader scale suggest odd economies that seem not to work; and the solution has always been to just ignore it. So a priori, I don't think this is a huge issue: you can make some story up, and just go with it. Secondly, the rarity system doesn't really fix this: if items are truly rare, why are you finding them all the time? And in any case, common items are still available in mass. Then there's the nonsense of the selling price: the more common a (non-perishable, tradable) good, the less it makes sense to have such a large difference between buying and selling price: yet 4e's sale price for common magic items is ludicrously low: that's obviously nonsensical, yet everyone just takes it in their stride. Ironically, the uncommon+rare items have smaller resale price drops (which is again just nonsense from a fluff perspective). But the point is: none of this is the focus of the story, so you avoid harping on it and make up some superficially plausible story, and that's that.

Given the realities of the economics of making items in the first place ironically the characters were STILL mostly dependent on the DM to give them the good stuff anyway, but the system had to bear the disadvantages of the loopholes and limitations forced on it by the way it worked.
The problematic economics haven't been fixed by the item rarity rules: it's even worse now since a large portion of the items cannot be crafted at all. And in practice, in the old system, allowing complete player control worked perfectly fine. In effect, that's what the DMG always suggested to do with wishlists, though I prefer random loot.

So we're losing a system that had it's flaws but worked for something that has little to recommend it. I think the idea that some items are unique and non-craftable is neat and exploitable; but the addition of rares would have been sufficient; I don't see the motivation for the uncommons. And the loss is great, since now suddenly the DM needs to micromanage items in a way he previously didn't (or remove uncommon items from player purview, in which case so few items remain that a major source of PC customization has disappeared).

Then of course any change starts with a net negative since you're imposing a hassle and downgrading compatibility with existing material.

So we're really not gaining anything with the new system, and we're losing a lot.

Finally, as a guy who's played D&D since the very earliest days of the game I don't actually think the whole 'bad DM' thing holds a lot of water.
I'm not exactly sure what you're refering to with bad DM's, but my issue is with DM required system mastery. I've played with novice DM's in the old system, and that works: the DM builds his story and let's the players build the PC's (including items). In the new system, you're forcing the DM to pick and choose for the players, and from my experience, these DM's simply cannot. As far as I'm concerned, it's not the DM's fault that the system is overcomplicated. It's not the DM that's bad, it's the item rarity system which requires excessive DM knowledge that's bad. It's just unnecessary.

Obviously no one approach is going to please everyone, but I think the rarity system took a huge step in eliminating some glaring flaws. Beyond that you can still do virtually the same thing with it you could do before, so it seems both better (to me) and is more flexible in general.
Which flaws is it exactly eliminating? All I can see is that it's eliminating player options, and involving the DM (who just because he's DM doesn't mean he knows the details of each PC and items that fit it) in an additional task he can really do without. Not to mention the fact that even if the DM knows the system, he's unlikely to know what the player wants unless he's a mind reader. E.g. if selecting an item for a polearm-fighter, do you pick a powerful spear or do you know of polearm momentum and pick rushing cleats instead? And if you do, was that what he wanted in the first place?

Note in particular that these kind of tactically interesting builds become impossible to pull off under the new system without active DM cooperation. That's a big loss, IMHO.
 

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top