D&D 3E/3.5 More 3.5 Errata Fodder: How to Charge past your friends

[Pielorinho]

I just noticed an interesting clarification/change to the charge rules, as I was reading over the "special attacks" section of the PhB. From Page 154:

"If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that. . . contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge."

D'oh! We've always allowed people to charge "through" allies, figuring the ally stepped to the side. Guess we'll have to change that tactic!

Or maybe not.

I read further, and on page 157, I find out about Overrun:

"You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge. . .With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent . . . as you move. . . The defender has the option to simply avoid you . . . If you were attempting the overrun as part of a charge, you may keep moving (you can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by)."

So what do we see here? No charging through the square of allies any more. But if there's an opponent in the way, you can charge through their square by attempting an overrun, and if they avoid you, everything's hunky-dory.

Sadly, it looks like you can't attempt an overrun on your allies, as it's an action that allows you to plow past or over your opponent.

Solution? If your ally is in the way, and you want to charge the bad guy, your ally is a putz! You hate your ally! He's your opponent! Overrun!

After you make it past your temporary opponent, of course, you'll remember that he stepped out of the way, allowing you to charge, and you'll decide that he's not such a bad guy after all. He's your ally again.

I'm so glad they clarified this aspect of charging!
Daniel

 

[Tabarnak Smokeblower]

I sure hope you don't angry your ally-turned-opponent too much, or he'll get a chance to AoO you!

TS

 

[smetzger]

"You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge. . .With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent . . . as you move. . . The defender has the option to simply avoid you . . . If you were attempting the overrun as part of a charge, you may keep moving (you can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by)."

I don't have the 3.5 books. But I don't see any problems here. Notice that it is a standard action to do the 'overrun'. So, you could Charge and Overrun but then you wouldn't be able to make an attack.

You can make a double move through an ally, but then you can't attack. Looks like they jive to me.

 

[Pielorinho]

Re: Re: More 3.5 Errata Fodder: How to Charge past your friends

I don't have the 3.5 books. But I don't see any problems here. Notice that it is a standard action to do the 'overrun'. So, you could Charge and Overrun but then you wouldn't be able to make an attack.

You can make a double move through an ally, but then you can't attack. Looks like they jive to me.

Obviously, I elided too much. In the "Opponent avoids?" section of Overrun, the following sentence appears: "In either case [i.e., cases where the opponent avoids you], the overrun attempt doesn't count against your actions this round."

Daniel

 

[reapersaurus]

Overrun was never a standard action.
It is part of the movement phase.

 

[Li Shenron]

AFAIR, in 3.0 you can Overrun only as part of a charge, and only once per charge (maybe with Improved Overrun more?).

By your quote, in 3.5 you can still Overrun as part of a charge, which doesn't take more actions - it's part of a FRA, not an action by itself. Otherwise, you can Overrun as a SAction during a move.

IMHO this is just horrible wording for a rule. What does it mean "during a move"? It's not the same as "part of a move action", and in fact it says it's a standard action. But "during" what makes you think? That you could spend a SA to overrun when you are in the middle of a move. Instead, later it says "If you were attempting the overrun as part of a charge, you may keep moving", which seems to imply that if you were otherwise overrunning but not as part of a charge, you can't split the move.

I have to say I have NEVER used overrun before. I am not even sure what it really means in english . It couldn't be just a trip attempt at the END of a charge/move, because there would not be a need for a specific action for this, you can simply trip as a normal attack, can't you?

Besides, I always wondered too about this opponent avoiding your overrun: if it lets you pass past him, does he get an AoO for you moving through his threatened area? If this is so, why the hell an opponent should ever try to block an overrun?

 

[Pielorinho]

I have to say I have NEVER used overrun before. I am not even sure what it really means in english . It couldn't be just a trip attempt at the END of a charge/move, because there would not be a need for a specific action for this, you can simply trip as a normal attack, can't you?

I think you'd mainly use an overrun if you want to get past a position someone is guarding; your opponent will refuse to step aside if her guard duties are really important. Perhaps your opponent is a zombie, guarding her cleric lord from smitehappy paladins. In this case, the paladin will likely want to overrun the zombie as part of a charge, soaking up an AoO from her, in order to reach the cleric; the zombie will want to prevent the paladin from getting past.

I agree, though: the only time I've ever used the overrun action was as a DM, when I was running some mounted-combat experts against my players. It's not a common action to use, although it's kind of cool, and I'd like to come up with more occasions to use it.

I think it's worded pretty crazily, especially since it allows you to charge past opponents more easily than you can charge past allies.

Daniel

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

If you were attempting the overrun as part of a charge, you may keep moving (you can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by)."

Here's my take on this, and I could certainly be wrong. Note that it says "you can always move through a square", not "charge".

What this means is that you can continue moving after the overrun target moves out of the way (so as to not be vulnerable to attack, etc), but you wouldn't be able to overrun a person standing directly behind them, as you would no longer be considered to be charging (a requirement for overrunning).

Sound good?

 

[Pielorinho]

Re: Re: More 3.5 Errata Fodder: How to Charge past your friends

Here's my take on this, and I could certainly be wrong. Note that it says "you can always move through a square", not "charge".

What this means is that you can continue moving after the overrun target moves out of the way (so as to not be vulnerable to attack, etc), but you wouldn't be able to overrun a person standing directly behind them, as you would no longer be considered to be charging (a requirement for overrunning).

Sound good?

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. It pretty clearly says, under the section about your victim choosing to avoid you, "In either case [i.e., cases where the opponent avoids you], the overrun attempt doesn't count against your actions this round." I understand this to mean that you are still considered to be charging. Nowhere in the section was there text suggesting that you'd no longer be considered charging.

Are you suggesting that you wouldn't be able to overrun a SECOND person after the first person moves out of the way? That may be true; I know that in 3.0, you could only attempt one overrun per round, and that rule may still be in there.

As it is, I think it's clear from the rules that you can use a loophole to charge past opponents but not past allies. Somebody thought it would be reasonable to disallow charging through squares occupied by allies, apparently, and added text to that effect to the charge rules (in 3.0, nothing prevented you from charging past allies). They hadn't, however, taken the overrun action into consideration when they made this change.

The more I read my 3.5 books, the clearer it becomes that they did less playtesting than they'd done for 3.0.

Daniel

 

[smetzger]

Re: Re: Re: More 3.5 Errata Fodder: How to Charge past your friends

Obviously, I elided too much. In the "Opponent avoids?" section of Overrun, the following sentence appears: "In either case [i.e., cases where the opponent avoids you], the overrun attempt doesn't count against your actions this round."

Daniel

I don't get it Overrun is a Standard Action that doesn't count against your actions this round?

Now that makes alot of sense. Why didn't they just say Overrun is a Free Action that can be done as part of a Charge?

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the "overrun attempt doesn't count against your actions this round" should be struck from the PHB. That would make both actions consistent.

The clarity here is amazing.