More DMing analysis from Lewis Pulsipher

Tony Vargas

Legend
My definition of balance is maximizing choices that are both meaningful & viable.

How Emerikol gets anything extreme out of that, I have no idea.

What's so great about not having choices, or being presented with meaningless or non-viable ones?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Again, you're trying to paint balance as an extremist goal, instead of a compromise. That makes no sense. In a balanced game, each player gets to play what he wants without overshadowing the next guy. How is that extreme or objectionable? It's not. It requires compromise on the part of any player whose vision of his desired character is overpowered or under-contributing, but that's all, it doesn't exclude anyone.

You're making assumptions about what kinds of games people want to play. Balance is simply not a compromise position when you're playing certain kinds of games that strive for a literary or historical simulation. A shootout between an IS-2 tank and a PzKpfw III wouldn't be balanced and under no circumstances should be if the game is making a nod toward historical simulation. Aragorn isn't balanced with Merry or Pippin and any game striving to meet that literary example will not favor mechanical balance either.

Balance may be a compromise position between certain poles depending on the criteria being compared. It is, however, also a pole itself when other criteria are considered.
 

Emerikol

Adventurer
My basic objective in this context is a game we can all participate in and enjoy.
The issue we are struggling with is that your definition of balance is so strict that you can't produce a game I'd care to play with it. Thus if you try to force your views upon D&D overall then I'm forced out.

Appeal to popularity. If you're going to try to get Fallacies named after you, you might want to avoid committing too many classic ones, yourself.
Not at all. I'm not saying your preferences are wrong. I am saying that enough people have different preferences to support a game. They enjoy that game and it entertains them despite the fact that you consider it massively imbalanced. Look at all the people that migrated from 3e to Pathfinder instead of going to 4e which was far more in your direction balance wise. Why is that? Because the rules you put forth that are required for balance basically ruin the game for a lot of people. Can't those people have fun too?

Again, you're trying to paint balance as an extremist goal, instead of a compromise. That makes no sense. In a balanced game, each player gets to play what he wants without overshadowing the next guy. How is that extreme or objectionable? It's not. It requires compromise on the part of any player whose vision of his desired character is overpowered or under-contributing, but that's all, it doesn't exclude anyone.
You've hijacked the term balance though. You use balance like we are to assume it means what it means in the dictionary. The problem is that many of us don't agree with your hyper sense of balance.


It's imbalanced games that are exclusionary. By over- or under- rewarding a given choice or style, they encourage adoption by some players and exclude others. What's worse is when those they're trying to exclude still find nowhere else to go, and end up second-class players, punished for their preferences or coerced into less desirable alternatives.
By any reasonable sense of balance I would agree with you but I know what you think balance entails so I reject the notion. Your definition basically eradicates all playstyles but your own.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
You're making assumptions about what kinds of games people want to play. Balance is simply not a compromise position when you're playing certain kinds of games that strive for a literary or historical simulation.
Simulations are an entirely different animal than games, and, indeed, do not require balance, only accuracy.

If there's a simulation with a game element, though, the choices presented to the player should be balanced, and, if simulation makes that impossible, should at least be fair. For instance, if you're playing a wargame where the battle is likely a forgone conclusion in the interest of historical accuracy, you might want to use a fair randomization mechanism to determine which player has his pick of which side to assume. While the contest won't be balanced, the game will at least be fair, even if it effectively hinges on a coin toss.

So that's a fair point, in general, even if it doesn't apply to D&D, since it's neither an historical nor a literary simulation. At most, it emulates a genre. And, really, did so most effectively when it was at it's best-balanced.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The issue we are struggling with is that your definition of balance is so strict that you can't produce a game I'd care to play with it. Thus if you try to force your views upon D&D overall then I'm forced out.
Strict? Maximizing choice is strict? Having more choices forces you out?

Look at all the people that migrated from 3e to Pathfinder instead of going to 4e. Why is that?
A veritable 'perfect storm' to reference another thread.

Because the rules you put forth that are required for balance basically ruin the game for a lot of people. Can't those people have fun too?
What is it about the prospect of other players' choices being both meaningful and viable that prevents your fun?

You've hijacked the term balance though. You use balance like we are to assume it means what it means in the dictionary. The problem is that many of us don't agree with your hyper sense of balance.
I don't think the definition I prefer for balance is terribly controversial. What's so terribly unreasonable about wanting to maximize player choice? What so bad about not wanting other players to be punished or marginalized for their choices?

By any reasonable sense of balance I would agree with you but I know what you think balance entails so I reject the notion. Your definition basically eradicates all playstyles but your own.
The only playstyles incompatible with balance would be those that, for some unknowable reason, /require/ that the choices of some of the participants be punished, marginalized, or otherwise discouraged, in order for the others to derive enjoyment from it. I have no problem with excluding such playstyles, if any such actually exist.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think that most traditional style RPGs can be played this way, for sure - and I think that is a definite comment on the place of PFS in the history of roleplaying. I can think of several systems, however, where it would be a bit of a challenge
Agreed.

I think Edwards got trapped by the very traps he pointed out! As soon as we go for a consistent set of rules I think there is some internal pressure to slide toward a model of the real world. I am convinced that this is two separate things, however: the desire for rules that reflect a consistent and working game world on the one hand, and a game world that has broad similarities to the real world on the other. The two are entirely compatible, but neither requires the other.
There is a limit on how big the gap can be, though.

For instance, if you are going to have ingame causality modelled by the mechanics, then the mechanics have to model processes like the transmission of energy from A to B. This is what Edwards is getting at in his analysis of combat mechanics. And once you have those sorts of processes in your game, a minimum degree of realism is going to assert itself. (Contrast, say, Toon, where you can't have systems that model ingame causation in any literal sense because cartoon worlds don't actually obey causal laws at all.)

I don't think either hit points or action economy in D&D break game-world causality; the proof of this is simply that they provide in-game causality, so if we assume that the game-world is determined by the rules then it, too, must have unbroken causality. The only reason that game-world causality might be compromised is if we require it to have some specific causality that is incompatible with the rules system.
I've never heard of anyone who thinks that peasant railguns are actually possible in the D&D gameworld, and relatively few who think that it is a stop-motion world. Yet these are both consequences of treating the 3E or 4e action economy as modelling the ingame causal processes.

My view is that, in fact, most players assume that motion in the gameworld is not stop-motion but more-or-less continuous, as it is in the real world (at least at human-sized scales). And that peasant railguns are not possible. On these (in my view, widely shared) assumptions the D&D action economy does violate ingame causality. Mutatis mutandis for hit points and healing.
 

pemerton

Legend
Aragorn isn't balanced with Merry or Pippin and any game striving to meet that literary example will not favor mechanical balance either.
Ron Edwards on balance:

<snip>

This is not solely the effectiveness-issue which confuses everyone. Comics fans will recognize that Hawkeye is just as significant as Thor, as a member of the Avengers, or even more so. In game terms, this is a Character Components issue: Hawkeye would have a high Metagame component whereas Thor would have a higher Effectiveness component.​
In a LotR game, the hobbit players would have metagame resources to balance Aragorn's greater mechanical prowess: this would be what they use to activate the Ents, befriend the lords of Rohan and Gondor, slay the Witchking, etc.

I gather the Buffy game does something similar.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
In a LotR game, the hobbit players would have metagame resources to balance Aragorn's greater mechanical prowess: this would be what they use to activate the Ents, befriend the lords of Rohan and Gondor, slay the Witchking, etc.

Or, in a D&D game based in the LotR, the GM makes sure he has important things for everyone to do in the long run and throws mixes of threats (like orcs chiefs, cave trolls, big uruks, and smaller northern goblins) at the PCs to give each PC a reasonable fight.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
There is a limit on how big the gap can be, though.
The only limit is our imaginations, which makes the field theoretically infinite (but practically bounded, both by actual imaginations and by what we are prepared to cope with).

For instance, if you are going to have ingame causality modelled by the mechanics, then the mechanics have to model processes like the transmission of energy from A to B. This is what Edwards is getting at in his analysis of combat mechanics. And once you have those sorts of processes in your game, a minimum degree of realism is going to assert itself. (Contrast, say, Toon, where you can't have systems that model ingame causation in any literal sense because cartoon worlds don't actually obey causal laws at all.)
I would say it is entirely possible to play Toon using the system as a literal "cartoon physics" - again, it's all down to the scope of imagination. Even a world where "energy" manifests very differently would be conceivable, but difficult to make consistent and complete.

That is not to say that most players will not much prefer to play in a game-world with which they feel at least marginally familiar; Toon has help, here, in that cartoons are generally somewhat familiar. But that doesn't seem to me to change the fundamental truth that there are two quite separate mechanisms at work:

1) The desire to have the game-world fully reflected in the rules, and hence conversely have the physics of the game world defined by the rules (the rules may "dictate" the world, but the players dictate the rules used, so it really is two way - the determining direction is just a matter of timing).

2) The desire to roleplay using a setting (game-world) that is to some extent familiar and felt to be understood, which means including a healthy dollop of either "reality" or genre (or, most usually, both).

It might be interesting, too, to consider the role that the game "fluff" has in setting the expectations for the "realism" of the ruleset; it seems to me that setting genre expectations might be a vital function of "fluff".

I've never heard of anyone who thinks that peasant railguns are actually possible in the D&D gameworld, and relatively few who think that it is a stop-motion world. Yet these are both consequences of treating the 3E or 4e action economy as modelling the ingame causal processes.
In the sense that peasants could launch stuff into space? No, they really aren't, because that's not what the result of the rules would be; there is no "momentum" in these systems. Add some flexibility to the game-time "axis" (so that a turn length is related somewhat to the number of "chained" actions involved, at least in a field surrounding those making the chained actions) and it's not even all that difficult to envision.

More generally, I think you may well be right that many players don't really consider the implications of a "stop motion" game physics. When they do, a first instinct can be to call for "rulings", but that only actually introduces a need for another game system to be used, in effect - and that system will be very likely to introduce its own issues. So experienced players settle on ignoring the issue and handwaving it when it becomes intrusive, thus moving away from Purist-for-System.

Nevertheless, I don't think that either stop-motion or hit points make it impossible to have consistent world physics, and neither do I think that playing in what one accepts as a world defined by these systems but ignoring the fact as far as possible is actually disfunctional. Doing so and demanding certain other system elements "so that things make sense", however, might well be inconsistent.

My view is that, in fact, most players assume that motion in the gameworld is not stop-motion but more-or-less continuous, as it is in the real world (at least at human-sized scales). And that peasant railguns are not possible. On these (in my view, widely shared) assumptions the D&D action economy does violate ingame causality. Mutatis mutandis for hit points and healing.
For many players I think it probably does, or rather ought to in theory (if they didn't engage in handwaving/rationalising). It certainly introduces inconsistencies into their preferences and advocacy for other subsystems. But that is due to an (often stated) preference for "realism" (sometimes termed "believability", "verisimilitude", "reasonableness" or even "something that makes sense"), not due to a demand or preference for rules that model in-game physics.

Think of it this way, maybe: the rules of Toon, as written, model a form of cartoon reality. Few toon players object to them when playing Toon, but introduce the same rules to D&D and I'll bet many folks will be up in arms. The problem is not that the Toon rules don't model a perfectly consistent process - it's that they don't model the specific process that folks have decided up-front they want D&D rules to model. That is quite a different issue. It might even get to the heart of the "4E is not D&D" comments; to one set of folks, "let's play D&D" means "let us roleplay characters in a world that works as defined by the D&D rules", but to another set of folks it means "let's roleplay characters in a world that we envision as D&D - and we'll find some rules that approximate that world and alter them as required to fit our (GM's) view of that world". The first is PFS as I originally understood it from The Forge, the second is a variant PFS that says that "the rules" are actually what the GM (or players, in Universalis*) makes up to fit the (pre-determined) world model.

*: Universalis is actually a fascinating case, since it seems to be built to facilitate exactly this approach with no GM.
 
Last edited:

Balesir

Adventurer
Or, in a D&D game based in the LotR, the GM makes sure he has important things for everyone to do in the long run and throws mixes of threats (like orcs chiefs, cave trolls, big uruks, and smaller northern goblins) at the PCs to give each PC a reasonable fight.
Isn't that the same thing? GM gimmies and freebies are metagame advantages; the only difference seems to be that they are not controlled by the player. I can see how this would trade control for both an easy life and perhaps easier immersion, as long as the players remain unaware of the metagame balancing that is going on. A player who becomes aware of the metagame boosting, however, might find it irritating.
 

Remove ads

Top