more domain abilities, less domain spells?

[Kahuna Burger]

I've been thinking about the cleric class and my general feeling is that its very boring... at first level you get two domain abilities, and the turning/rebuke thing, then after that you just keep racking up spells and turns per day. oh, wait, you don't get more turnings per day... I can't see any reason not to take a +one spellcasting level type PrC as soon as possible, unless it has a bad BAB. Its just so...well, boring.

In addition, I don't like how few of the domain abilities scale... you get a special at first level and then just keep it. So I'm considering trying to address both of these concerns at once by getting rid of domain spells and instead having a steady progression of domain abilities. Some would still be one/day spell like abilities and thus not very different from the current domain, but at other levels you might get extraordinary or transformative* abilities. It would give a definite incentive for continuing the cleric class as opposed to taking a clerical PrC.

*(a catch all for inherent bonuses, size increases and decreases, etc)

Things I haven't quite decided yet would be if at each level where you gained an ability you would choose which domain to take it from, or if there would be only 4 or 5 abilities per domain which you would gain at alternate key levels.

(one other nice bonus to this would be that you could gain the domain abilities at levels where you don't gain a new level of spell instead of the same one as it is now... would make leveling a cleric more consistently worthwhile IMHO)

Any thoughts? anyone already done it?

Kahuna burger

 

[AeroDm]

That is a really really interesting idea.

Possible problems come in the power that would then be added to the cleric. Even if you 'only' gave each domain 4-5 powers and even if the cleric had to choose (thus ending with 4-5 total powers) I'd assume that the combined total of them is greater than the 2 powers they would originally have had as well as the slot lost.

I think that if you did it _very_ well it would turn out marvelously, although people will most likely gripe because you are removing power from a class or adding power to a class. Either way people gripe.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

That is a really really interesting idea.

Possible problems come in the power that would then be added to the cleric. Even if you 'only' gave each domain 4-5 powers and even if the cleric had to choose (thus ending with 4-5 total powers) I'd assume that the combined total of them is greater than the 2 powers they would originally have had as well as the slot lost.

I'm not sure of that... I mean, if we assume the current domains add two "specials" plus a total of nine spell like abilities unsable once per day, we simply have to figure out how to balance spell like abilities with other specials... There must be some PrC guidelines out there that do exactly that. or possibly one of the ECL calculators... (some domains have more or less powerful spells, but I think the majority are of the same spell level as they are in the standard cleric list.)

So the modified cleric starts at first level with his two minor domain abilities, and thereafter gets to choose between the two domain abilities at each level which follows one where he gets a new level of spell. Each domain ability is balanced as equivelent to a spell like ability once per day of that level. I think they can even be a bit more powerful than that because a) domain spells are choosen each morning for that day's use as opposed to only once, b) domain spells are carried along to any +1 spellcasting class and abilities are tied to the core class and cannot be gained otherwise, and 3) a lot of them will probably end up being more specific and less used than the domain spells, as is the lot of special abilities vs spells.

At least thats the way I'm trying to look at it so I can even envision adapting most of the existing domains...

Kahuna burger

 

[Shallown]

For even more variety you could do a Major and minor domain.

More or less each domain has a list of two abilities maybe the minors are at odd levels and majors are at even levels. This way the cleric chooses what thier focus is and get the abilities of both domains just one is their major and one thier minor.

As far as balance goes you just boost it just a little since they lose some flexibility in choosing the spells each day etc.

So Strength domain gives normal base ability and at these spell levels you gain
If you chose it as a minor you get only the odd level ones if major only the even level ones
1) Enlarge Person 1 X Daily
2) Bull strength (+6 enhancement) 1 X daily
3) Bull Strength 1 X daily
4) Choice of Power attack/ cleave / Imp sunder for 1r per level 1 X day as a virtual feat

And so forth or something a lot more creative given time to think about it

Later

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Another idea for domains and spells/abilities....

One thing I always hated was when you picked a fairly common domain (like healing for instance) and your domain spell was something you could already cast in a normal slot. It always seemed like such a letdown. You could (in the case of the Healing Domain) make the 1st level healing domain spell Cure Medium Wounds. By "upping" the spell level you are basically giving extra powers, but not changing the system already in place.

You could then make the domain spells only based on your pure cleric level, thus providing a reason to stay in the pure class.

Then you need to do some thing for the sorcerer along these same lines. I think they suffer even LESS by taking a +1 spellcasting level than clerics do.

DS

 

[DaveStebbins]

You could make domain abilities and domain spells an either/or proposition. When you reach the appropriate level you either choose to cast the domain spell of that level once per day (chosen each day from among your domains) OR you give up that level of domain spells in exchange for a domain ability. It would be more paperwork, remembering which levels you do and don't have domain spells for, but it would also gibve you a more balanced and flexible cleric.

 

[Scion]

You could also check out nwn and how they did domains.

None of them give a new spell at each level, but they pretty much all have cool abilites. They also seem so scale with level.

An example. The death domain grants you a little shadow buddy that you can summon. He gets stronger as you increase in levels. The domain only gives you enervation and slay living I think (its been awhile). So you have a lot of interesting flavor with your little buddy, but almost no new spells to choose from.

The healing one is even cooler. Every cure spell that you memorize is treated as if it was empowered. That gives a character a good reason to actually mem them now and then

 

[Li Shenron]

Hi Kahuna. What about something along the following lines?

1) you get rid of domain spells altogether as you say, so clerics lose 9 spells/day (not spell-like! those are better) of level 1-9 which are gained every odd level
2) you give a domain 5 steps of benefits, each of which may give a new ability and/or improve the previous (rather than having an automatic improve with levels)
3) at level 1 and every even level afterwards, a cleric either select the next step in a domain or otherwise takes the first step in a new domain (obviously they must be all her deity's domains)

In the span of 20 levels a cleric would get 11 steps and can eventually "complete" advancement in 2 domains. You could instead make more steps per domain if you find enough ideas. The first step can be the same as the original domain power: this may make players choose as many domains as possible, but since many of these powers would not improve unless further steps are taken, it probably won't be too powerful.

Let me try some unbalanced possibilities...

ANIMAL
step 1: You can use speak with animals once per day as a spell-like ability. Add Knowledge (nature) to your list of cleric class skills
step 2: You gain Wild Empathy as a Druid/Ranger of your level, add Summon Nature's Ally I-III to your spell list
step 3: You can use Dominate Animal once per day as a spell-like ability, , you can use Speak with Animals 3/day
step 4: You can use Wild Shape 1/day, add Summon Nature's Ally IV-VI to your spell list
step 5: , you can use Speak with Animals at will, add Summon Nature's Ally VII-IX to your spell list

HEALING
step 1: You cast healing spells at +1 caster level.
step 2: You cast spontaneously Cure Wounds spells (if you didn't before), you brew healing potions at half gp price, you gain a +4 inherent bonus to Heal checks
step 3: You cast spontaneously Heal, you cast healing spells at +2 caster level
step 4: Once per day you can cast a healing spell as with Reach Spell without increasing the spell level
step 5: You cast spontaneously any healing spell, you cast healing spells at +3 caster level

KNOWLEDGE
step 1: Add all Knowledge skills to your list of cleric class skills. You cast divination spells at +1 caster level.
step 2: You can use any Knowledge skill untrained, add any 2 divinations to your spell list from the Wizard/Sorcerer list
step 3: You can cast spontaneously Detect Magic, add any 2 divinations to your spell list from the Wizard/Sorcerer list
step 4: You don't need concentration to mantain a Detect spell, add any 2 divinations to your spell list from the Wizard/Sorcerer list
step 5: Once per day you may reroll a failed Knowledge check, add any 2 divinations to your spell list from the Wizard/Sorcerer list

Just thoughts... this way enables high customization, but it is more difficult to choose adequate powers because you could reach step 5 at level 8, therefore you can't grant high-level spell-like abilities. Another option is to let the cleric choose a first domain at level 1 and then it improves automatically at level 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 while the second domain improves automatically at level 2, 6, 10, 14, 18.