Dragonlance More DRAGONLANCE Information: Kender, Battles, W&H's Novels, & More!

In addition to the official videos announcing Dragonlance releases for late 2022, I got to talk to talk to the D&D team and get a few more details not in the public D&D Direct event.

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  • Because Dragonlance is a setting about war, Ray Winninger, Executive Producer of Dungeons & Dragons, was asked if Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen would have large-scale combat rules. He said that they would in an broad abstract form. The board game or battle game Dragonlance: Warriors of Krynn is actually focused on large-scale combat and can be played independently or RPG players could switch to Warriors of Krynn for their big combat scenes, including porting in their characters and then switch back to the RPG after the battle. So the RPG adventure can be played alone, the board game can be played alone or they can be combined, depending upon the group's preference.
  • Dragonlance: Warriors of Krynn is a cooperative game.
  • When asked if Dragonlance: Warriors of Krynn could be used for large-scale battles in other D&D settings Winninger said it was designed with that idea in mind. However, if Dragonlance: Warriors of Krynn is poplar they'll consider making more customized, large-scale combat board games for other settings.
  • Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen is a brand new story, independent of the upcoming novel, Dragonlance: Dragons of Deceit. Winninger said that Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman are telling their own story set in Krynn while Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen is a different story set in Krynn and is blazing a trail to help players create their own stories in Krynn. So Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen and Dragons of Deceit are both set in the same world but different stories.
  • There will be some cameos from old Dragonlance characters, especially villains, in Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen.
  • Price points for Dragonlance: Warriors of Krynn and Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen are not finalized yet.
  • When asked about player races for Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen – especially Kender – Winninger said that Kender have gotten a good reception from the Unearthed Arcana play test but they're making some tweaks. Yes, Kender will be an option. He said the play test material gives hints as to what playable races it will have but would not mention to confirm any specifically beyond Kender.
 
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Beth Rimmels

Beth Rimmels

Behaving like a bad child is not "a culture", and we've already had it argued that their thievery is innate, not cultural (Marak Kender still doing it supports this). So you're going to have to step it up to "racism" if you really want to go there lol. Are you going to call us "racist against Kender"? I am begging you to call me an anti-Kender racist.
Thanks for proving my point. If you read the racial description of Kender, part of their culture is the lack of understanding of personal property. And your extreme and, honestly unimaginative, hatred of them further proves that my statement earlier was accurate.

It is no longer of any benefit to have this discussion with you anymore since there is absolutely no way you are going to budge from your position, nor are you open to reasonable discussion on the matter. This will be my last comment to you on this subject.

I also don't baselessly accuse anyone of racism, particularly when it comes to a fantasy game.
 

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FitzTheRuke

Legend
I think that it's sad that so many people have had trouble with bad Kender players. They can bring a lot of heart when done well.

Perhaps the game would be served well to have an extra "play nice with others" when it comes to some of the potentially problematic classes/races/spells. Kender might be potential problems in the wrong hands, but then, so are Barbarians (who can get everyone killed by rushing forward), Rogues (who can also steal from the party), summoning spells (that can take over the game, so one player is monopolizing the battle), Gnomes (like mentioned above), Wild Magic, or anything else that people find fault with.

I'd certainly rather that the pitfalls were openly discussed, rather than banning or disincluding everything just because some players will forget the Golden Rule.
 

It is no longer of any benefit to have this discussion with you anymore since there is absolutely no way you are going to budge from your position, nor are you open to reasonable discussion on the matter. This will be my last comment to you on this subject.
I mean, you keep saying this but... lol. You do you! Fine to not respond.

I don't actually hate Kender (I am more extremely wary of them), but they are very specific taste, indeed I'm the only person I know who has played one (and I really kept a lid on the bad behaviour because jesus wept), and very likely to be disruptive. I dislike Tinker Gnomes much more - they're a much less plausible and more fundamentally annoying concept.

Also, as I said, the discussion is whether it's cultural or innate, and several people here who like Kender hold that the stealing is innate. That Marak Kender also do it tends to support things.

Perhaps the game would be served well to have an extra "play nice with others" when it comes to some of the potentially problematic classes/races/spells.
I definitely think D&D could use more health warnings on certain classes/races/spells, yeah.
 

ART!

Legend
I did, I’m sorry. I did give notes on the item feature.
Same!
I understand the motivations behind the design of them but its ended up as something unrecognisable as Kender. I hope the tweaks do something to address that. I’m glad at least that they don’t seem to be re-writing Dragonlance history with this
Some of this depends on if they want Kender to be very true to their depiction in Dragonlance, or something one could port into any D&D game. The racial traits in UA seemed too specific to me, but it would be easy to broaden them out some to make easier to interpreting how and why they work.
 

Kalashtar

Villager
Hey! Snazzy new avatar! :sneaky:

Were there clerics during War of the Lance? I was under the impression (maybe wrong) that there were no divine spellcasters of any kind, which is what made Goldmoon so exceptional?
Goldmoon was the only cleric of the Gods of Light at the time. The clerics of the Gods of Darkness, such as Verminaard, appeared earlier. Nothing was said about clerics of the Gods of Neutrality although a druid is available as a pregenerated character option in the modules.
 

ECMO3

Hero
So Kender weren't immune to fear? Funny, I seem to remember that. But, in any case, that's some pretty fine hairs your splitting. You claimed that the problem was with players, not the race. Moving the goalposts to claim that it wasn't mechanics that was the problem isn't really winning any points here.
Kender are immune to fear (both magical and non-magical) in the 1E mechanics. This is on Dragons of Despair page 3.

In 5E this would be equivalent to being immune to the frightened condition. In 5E things like dissonent whispers would still affect them because it does not require "frightened" much like "turning" undead does not require frightened.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Regarding stealing and lack of value perception - I actually both played and DMed 1E Dragonlance in the 80s when they were published and DMed them again in a 1E game in the 2010s.

I find the Kender Mechanics regarding stealing, inability to concentrate and lack of understanding of value to be diffcult to actually accomodate in play. In the first two games we hand waived those because it was too difficult and devicive. In the final game I made both Tasselhof and that Kender you end up with in the group that goes east (Kronn??) NPCs.

Tas actually died in the Sanction in the third time I played. That was great because in the rest of the modules all the Kender the PCs ran into (including the east group that was the same players but different characters) talked about Tas' accomplishments and how he was a hero and saved the world, while minimizing the role the actual PC's characters made. This is doubly funy because as an NPC Tass' roll was actually minor compared to the characters (up till when he died).

Also when it comes to "I'm just playing my character" .... a Lawful-Neutral watchmember or magistrate who grabs the thief's arms and cuts off his hands after being stolen from is "just playing his character" too.
 

I pulled out my DL 2 copy, surely bought for that classic Elmore cover…..flipping through it, man I’m glad most RPGs got out of this style with blocks and blocks of read aloud texts, just yuk to me now.
 
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Scribe

Legend
Does Tass just use Faewild Powers to get Glasses of True Seeing which was needed to help the heroes at one point? If you change or remove Bupu the Gully Dwarf that seriously changes things for Raistlin.
I 100% am positive they will not touch Raistlin's character arc, I doubt they touch on the 2 'main' trilogies at all.
 

Hussar

Legend
And once again, easily managed if you set clear expectations to your players as a DM.
Isn't this pretty clearly Oberoni territory? It's not the problem with the game, but with DM's that don't fix the problem?

So all those people who absolutely detest kender - it's probably the number one banned character concept and always has been - to the point where all the hoopla about Dragon-bewbs looks like a tiny tempest in a teacup in comparison - were just wrong. They just weren't good enough DM's to have Kender in their games?

And xenophobia? Seriously? Not liking a game construct because I believe that that game construct is disruptive to the table and causes problems is very much not something you can call xenophobic.
 
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Isn't this pretty clearly Oberyoni territory? It's not the problem with the game, but with DM's that don't fix the problem?

So all those people who absolutely detest kender - it's probably the number one banned character concept and always has been - to the point where all the hoopla about Dragon-bewbs looks like a tiny tempest in a teacup in comparison - were just wrong. They just weren't good enough DM's to have Kender in their games?
Ah, there it is. Yet another strawman.

If you go back and read through my comments...move your lips if you need to...you will see that I stated that I clearly don't understand the hate because in all the time I've DM'd Dragonlance, all 30+ years of it, I have never once had a problem with Kender. Not even once.

I have had problems with other players, particularly those who make baseless and untrue accusations that could (if I bothered to take them seriously or to value their opinion in any way) be construed as libelous.

Saying that it's the fault of the rules is an excuse, and a poor one at that. Saying it is the fault of unruly players and power-gamers is more relevant.

And xenophobia? Seriously? Not liking a game construct because I believe that that game construct is disruptive to the table and causes problems is very much not something you can call xenophobic.

Surprisingly rich, considering the source.
 
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Hussar

Legend
Ah, there it is. Yet another strawman.

If you go back and read through my comments...move your lips if you need to...you will see that I stated that I clearly don't understand the hate because in all the time I've DM'd Dragonlance, all 30+ years of it, I have never once had a problem with Kender. Not even once.

I have had problems with other players, particularly those who make baseless and untrue accusations that could (if I bothered to take them seriously or to value their opinion in any way) be construed as libelous.

Saying that it's the fault of the rules is an excuse, and a poor one at that. Saying it is the fault of unruly players and power-gamers is more relevant.
Or, it's simply that you have a really, really small sample size and haven't run into it? Exactly how many kender PC's were there in your last Dragonlance campaign? That actually made it all the way through the campaign? Oh, right, none. Didn't even appear as an NPC. One kender PC that lasted what, a handful of sessions before real life caused her to drop from the campaign?

And after that? No kender appearing at all.

So, I'm going to say that your experience may just possibly be less universal than you might think.

But, hey, if you find it easier to blame unruly players and power gamers for the nearly universal dislike of kender, more power to you. It's no skin off my nose. I can honestly say I've never had a problem at my table either with a kender player. Mostly because I don't recall anyone actually playing a kender, but, it's still true that I haven't had any problems.

I just don't believe that all those other people are lying when they say that they have had problems.
 

Or, it's simply that you have a really, really small sample size and haven't run into it? Exactly how many kender PC's were there in your last Dragonlance campaign? That actually made it all the way through the campaign? Oh, right, none. Didn't even appear as an NPC. One kender PC that lasted what, a handful of sessions before real life caused her to drop from the campaign?

And after that? No kender appearing at all.

There were two...or are you talking about the one you were in? There was one there briefly, and a large part of a story arch where you met a large number of Kender who were fighting an army of Draconians and Ogre. Oh...conveniently forgot because it doesn't fit your narrative...got it. Over the years, I must have run close to 100 Kender since 1985 or so. So yeah, my sample size may be relatively small, but it is significant enough that my statement remains relevant.

So, I'm going to say that your experience may just possibly be less universal than you might think.

Right back atcha.

But, hey, if you find it easier to blame unruly players and power gamers for the nearly universal dislike of kender, more power to you. It's no skin off my nose. I can honestly say I've never had a problem at my table either with a kender player. Mostly because I don't recall anyone actually playing a kender, but, it's still true that I haven't had any problems.

I just don't believe that all those other people are lying when they say that they have had problems.
And, again, another strawman. No where, in any of my comments, did I say anything about anyone lying.

Perhaps you should refrain from putting words in peoples' mouths like you usually do...
 

Hussar

Legend
There were two...or are you talking about the one you were in? There was one there briefly, and a large part of a story arch where you met a large number of Kender who were fighting an army of Draconians and Ogre. Oh...conveniently forgot because it doesn't fit your narrative...got it. Over the years, I must have run close to 100 Kender since 1985 or so. So yeah, my sample size may be relatively small, but it is significant enough that my statement remains relevant.

Dude, it was like 10 years ago. I forgot. It was a pretty long campaign. And, to be honest, I still don't remember what you are talking about. But, this does speak to the notion of accusations of lying rather than arguing in good faith.

So, you've run close to 100 kender.

How many were run by players? Which was more my point. Since we're not talking about the DM running NPC's. We're talking about players running Kender PC's. So, 2 so far. In the 30 years you are talking about, how many Kender PC's are we talking about? That you can claim the problem is "unruly players and power-gamers".

Oh, right, they're not lying. They're xenophobic. Sorry, got confused for a moment there.
 
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Dude, it was like 10 years ago. I forgot. It was a pretty long campaign. And, to be honest, I still don't remember what you are talking about. But, this does speak to the notion of accusations of lying rather than arguing in good faith.

And you would know know all about that since that is precisely what you are doing here.

So, you've run close to 100 kender.

How many were run by players? Which was more my point. Since we're not talking about the DM running NPC's. We're talking about players running Kender PC's. So, 2 so far. In the 30 years you are talking about, how many Kender PC's are we talking about? That you can claim the problem is "unruly players and power-gamers".

Yes, close to 100 players since 1985. Maybe that was too complex for you to understand...not surprising. I spent many years running Dragonlance as my main campaign world. Not too difficult to believe there considering that that's what...37 years?

Oh, right, they're not lying. They're xenophobic. Sorry, got confused for a moment there.

That happens a lot, yes?

Once again, deliberately misinterpreting my comment..remarkably, the same reason that you and I had our falling out! Shall I quote it again so that you can choose to deliberately misinterpret it again? I specifically stated that I don't understand the xenophobic hatred. A little hyperbolic? Possibly. But also quite relevant considering the venom being expressed toward Kender.

You've had a hundred players play kender? Seriously? I haven't had a hundred players play anything. Wow. That's impressive.

So, just to be absolutely clear here. You've had about three different players playing kender every single year that you've played D&D?

Four little letters...FLGS

It's really very simple. Pick up games, one shots, etc. For many years, the FLGS was the only place I could get together and game, and I met some wonderful friends there along the way. Once ran a one shot and had an entire party of the little buggers (it was amazingly fun!). So, it's not too difficult for most people to figure this out instead of being disrespectful and implying that I am being untruthful.
 
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Also, just regarding Kender stats? Let's not forget, early 5E, they had a playable Kender stat block that was in line with how kender were prsented in the past. Complete immunity to fear, thieving, the whole nine yards. They were presented in the same line that gave us all of the other base races

Folks overwhelming said "No, we don't want this" and Kender were the only race who ended up dumped from the PHB as a result

If it was just a one or two person thing that wouldn't have happened, but, it did happen. What was for all intents and purposes a finished race, intended for the PHB, got dropped simply because they were Kender. This is "The D&D community, at large, hate how Kender were presented in the past". Hence, they were changed to something the community prefers
 



Hussar

Legend
Yes, close to 100 players since 1985. Maybe that was too complex for you to understand...not surprising. I spent many years running Dragonlance as my main campaign world. Not too difficult to believe there considering that that's what...37 years?
You've had a hundred players play kender? Seriously? I haven't had a hundred players play anything. Wow. That's impressive.

So, just to be absolutely clear here. You've had about three different players playing kender every single year that you've played D&D?
 

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