More feats (fighting/Wis-related)

[hong]

In which case this is probably too strong. It effectively grants near-immunity to all energy-draining attacks, and nullifies secondary poison damage as a useful kicker.

Um, no. Negative levels (which are the initial effect of energy drain) aren't the same as level loss. If you're 10th level, taking 10 negative levels will still kill you, even if you have a massive bonus to avoid turning them into actual lost levels subsequently.

Still too powerful. I don't see how it's different from the original, as it still allows a retroactive reroll with a much better modifier.

That's the point, yes. And you can only do it so many times per day.

Well, seeing as their class skills are generally held to be weak at best, two feats and some skill points to have a very comfortable against your main Achilles' heel (Will saves) doesn't seem that much of a price to pay. For a fighter with about twenty feats by the end, spending two to cover your main weakness seems a good expenditure.

And here some other people were whinging about fighters not having enough skill points....

It seems quite reasonable to me. If a fighter really wants to take Iron Will, Strength of Will, Cosmopolitan, _and_ use up a quarter to one-half his skill points to cover this one vulnerability, that's his decision. Assuming I even allow Cosmopolitan into my game, that is.

 

[Al]

hong: With respect to negative levels- I did only say 'near-immunity' to energy-draining attacks. Negative levels are unpleasant, but surely the reason why players are terrified to death of energy drainers is not the negative levels (which go away after 24 hours) but the level loss at the end.

With respect to Strength of Will: The fighter does, admittedly, have to spend three feats and some skill points. Yet the average fighter has twenty feats to choose. And his skill listing is so dire that most fighters I generate buy skills like Listen and Spot cross-class- surely Concentration is preferable with this feat combo. Essentially, spending 15% of your feats (which is the equivalent of one feat for non-fighter non-wizard non-rogues) to cover your main Achilles' heel seems like a good expenditure. The only thing that fighters are *really* scared of (with good reason) are Will saves: this effectively removes this fear, and at a relatively cheap cost.

 

[hong]

hong: With respect to negative levels- I did only say 'near-immunity' to energy-draining attacks. Negative levels are unpleasant, but surely the reason why players are terrified to death of energy drainers is not the negative levels (which go away after 24 hours) but the level loss at the end.

What you're basically saying is exactly what I said: energy drain is obnoxious. This feat makes it less obnoxious, while retaining the threat that it can still kill you. This is a Good Thing.

Now if the feat had actually made you immune to the initial negative levels, you might have a case. As it is, I don't know what the big deal is.

With respect to Strength of Will: The fighter does, admittedly, have to spend three feats and some skill points. Yet the average fighter has twenty feats to choose.

And has a long list of feats to choose from. If a fighter takes this feat chain, that's three less feats (and 20-odd less skill points) that he can use to kick butt with.

And his skill listing is so dire that most fighters I generate buy skills like Listen and Spot cross-class- surely Concentration is preferable with this feat combo.

You know, everyone else that has voiced an opinion on this issue has said that the fighter is useless out of combat because they have so few class skills and skill points. What you're effectively saying is that this feat chain is so incredibly attractive that the decision to become even _more_ useless out of combat becomes a no-brainer.

I don't think I believe you.

 

[Al]

I take your point on energy drain. Personally, I don't think it's that unpleasant, but it's your rule and your call.

With regard to fighters, I still think you're wrong. An interesting thread on Will saves and the fighter made this point: three feats to make you well-protected against Will saves ARE in fact helping you kick butt...you're not kicking much butt if you're charmed, held, suggested or dominated. Ability to defend oneself is in proportion to butt-kicking, otherwise why would fighters bother with armour?

As for being useless out of combat, saying that they shouldn't take feats to improve their combat abilities at the expense of something which they're already useless at is a no-brainer. It's a bit like saying that a wizard should no way take a feat that boosts his magical abilities at the expense of his melee prowess. The fighter FIGHTS. His whole point is combat situations. Saying that a feat is okay because it reduces his effectiveness out of these situations is not an argument.

 

[hong]

With regard to fighters, I still think you're wrong. An interesting thread on Will saves and the fighter made this point: three feats to make you well-protected against Will saves ARE in fact helping you kick butt...you're not kicking much butt if you're charmed, held, suggested or dominated. Ability to defend oneself is in proportion to butt-kicking, otherwise why would fighters bother with armour?

Now you're just being silly.

In that sense, of course the feats are helping you kick butt. That's the whole POINT of having feats. If you don't want to kick butt, you should be restricting characters to Skill Focus (basketweaving), or turning fighters into warriors, or something else like that. However, by taking _these_ feats, the fighter's direct damage-dealing potential is restricted, because they could have taken other feats that are more offense-oriented, and furthermore their ability in situations outside the dungeon becomes even more restricted. As with any other feat, there's a tradeoff.

And even if this feat makes it hard to be affected by a hold person, so what? At 10th level, you can use it twice per day. I'm pretty sure you'll be affected by more mind-affecting spells and effects than that. At 20th level, it becomes four times per day. Big whoop.

As for being useless out of combat, saying that they shouldn't take feats to improve their combat abilities at the expense of something which they're already useless at is a no-brainer. It's a bit like saying that a wizard should no way take a feat that boosts his magical abilities at the expense of his melee prowess. The fighter FIGHTS. His whole point is combat situations. Saying that a feat is okay because it reduces his effectiveness out of these situations is not an argument.

I suppose all your adventures follow the typical grim-and-gritty movie plot: eat, crap, kill? (Well, maybe not the crap bit, since toilets don't seem to exist in RPGs.)

A fighter fights, and also talks, intimidates, spots enemies, rides horsies, and so on. Their effectiveness in the dungeon isn't in question, the problem is that they're totally inflexible out of it. People wouldn't be complaining that they have too few skills/skill points if this wasn't the case.

Now, looking over the previous Unyielding Soul feat I posted, there may be an imbalance in terms of prereqs. Strength of Will only requires one (technically), while Unyielding Soul requires two: Iron Will and Indomitable. Adding another prereq to SoW wouldn't be out of line, perhaps Still Mind.