Levekius said:
A dozen? Who? What? Where? There's a handful of *consistent* publishers out there.
Okay nitpicker, you've got me there. Touche'!
Let's see what the new Dragon and Dungeon will look like before singing their praise. I think having official outlets to the game was actually a strength of the game. I do agree with you that less WotC product pimping would have been good, though. As for pages and pages of errata, on planet earth, this is considered *bad*. I'm glad that from wherever you are coming from, books full of gaffes are considered a good thing.
Very funny, wise guy. Too bad your observation is foolish. On "planet earth" everybody makes errors. Errors are bad. Errata is good. Think for a moment, and you'll understand the difference.
As opposed to being flooded by numerous 3rd party offerings, the majority of which suck just as much and sometimes even more. In effect, we have even more crap than we used to, the ratio of good to sucky product has about stayed the same, and more importantly, what little good stuff is out there doesn't gel well together.
I like what D20 has to offer, but companies should work together and try and avoid the numerous overlaps that exist currently. Similar feats, similar prestige classes. It's getting annoying.
Yes, it's getting annoying. And the majority does "suck just as much and sometimes even more". So.. don't buy it. Don't use it. No one will mind, as that stuff is not official D&D product.
Many of us use just the core rules and official D&D products. If WotC continued flooding us with crappy releases, we'd feel obligated to buy that stuff and use it.
WotC, now, does not have to worry about overlaps, similar feats, similar prestige classes, and other annoyances. And neither do you, as that stuff is not going to be released as official D&D product.
Honestly, which would you prefer: a dilution of D&D's quality through more and more crappy official D&D supplements, or a bunch more unofficial 3rd party supplements?
Note that I'm not saying all or the majority of 3rd party supplements are crap. You said that. But if it's crap, I'd rather it be unofficial crap.
Is there a Vampire D20 somewhere?
Who knows? I assume there is, or will be. Does it matter? the only reason I pulled Vampire out of the air was because it's more recognizable than Deadlands. Point is, it's easier than ever to play in different game settings, thanks to d20/thanks to WotC.
You mean, slipped production schedule like the fabulous Master Tools a product that was late by *years*, not months or weeks, which later became the sucky E-Tools that retail at a way too high price and is 100% junk?
Master Tools was developed by a 3rd party, genius.
Furthermore, pre-WotC release schedules were far, far worse. My position is that D&D is *better* now than ever. My position is not that D&D is perfect now.
And sloppy layout... I certainly don't think a professional worthy of that name would have put out the Monster manual as is. It is embarassingly amateurish.
Compare the crisp layout and organization of the 3E PHB to the nightmare that was the 2E PHB. Which is better?
Artistic style aside, which book is more clear, easier to understand, better value for your money?
(In case you need help, the answer is the 3E PHB.)
Terrible editing, rules-creep... you've got a short memory. You've been babbling about (I quote) "pages and pages of official errata and a definitive FAQ". Yup. A real work of art. Most WotC's products are filled with errors. The pile of erratas is amusing.
Are you actually saying that TSR's products weren't filled with errors? Well, since the point of my post was that D&D is better now than it was before, and you are attempting to refute that point... than yes, you are saying that TSR's products weren't filled with errors. Which makes you a person unfamiliar with reality. Or at least history.
Compared to 2E or any other RPG products on the market today, WotC's books are shining examples of clarity and function. Sure, they have errors--all game books have errors. And guess what? WotC corrected those errors through the publication of accessible errata documents. The "pile of erratas" is praise-worthy.
Now, as for the splatbooks... those books sucked. Thank goodness for the erratas--they at least corrected the inexcusable blunders of missing tables, blatant rules gaffs, etc. Which is why it's a good thing WotC is, apparently, focusing on the core books and fewer, better releases.
You bet, I can't wait to see more idiotic Sage rulings. With a bit of luck, maybe "Skip" will release another Deities & Demigods. The last one with his name on it is a real gem. Nostalgia is great. But in the real world, many of the latest offerings signed Skip Williams have sucked.
It's ironic (and a little sad) that you dismiss nostalgia and imply that I suffer from it, when you yourself are so drunk on it. Your belief that "In the old days, D&D was better... the RPG hobby was better" is nothing but the worst example of delusional nostalgia.
And what's with your anger toward Skip? Where'd that come from? Calm down, man.
BTW, you make it sound like Skip, Bruce and Stan *weren't* free to pursue their dreams before the layoffs. Newsflash: this is America we're talking about. Nobody was pointing a gun on their head and forcing them to stay. If they had dreams of innovative new content, they could always quit their jobs. My guess is, they're not happy about being layed off. That's the cold, harsh reality.
Hee hee. Yeah, they could always quit their jobs and willingly enter the unemployed game designer pool during a recession. Yep, they sure had that choice. Yep.
If you've got a good thing going with steady income, you'd have to be crazy to throw that away. Monte did it and managed to succeed, and Monte's crazy (he'd tell you that himself). Most people, however, would just stick to it and collect that paycheck.
Look at you. Look at your job. Is it your dream job? I'm guessing not. So... why don't you quit your job and pursue your dream job as president of WotC? You have that choice. "Newsflash: this is America we're talking about."
Please.
Anyway, those guys did the smart thing and stuck it out at WotC as long as possible. My point was that at WotC, they had to play by WotC's rules. Now they don't have to do that.
Look, I appreciate your humorous reply. It's clear you care about the game, and so do I. But please, if you want to argue, stop (unsuccessfully) trying to attack my examples of how D&D is better now than ever before, and instead provide examples of how D&D is worse than ever before.
-z
PS: And of course those guys aren't happy about being layed off. Not sure why you brought that up.
EDIT: Actually, never mind. You win. Forget about it. I don't want this thread to morph into a 2e/3e debate or a war (see patrick's post above). Feel free to reply, or not.
