More pure speculation- "The math is different"

[RSKennan]

We've heard that the math underlying 4e is different than it is now... how do you guys think that might be?

We all know that the varied scales for advancement of BAB and Saves were one of the major issues with epic level play. What if this time around there are no differences between the progressions? Each might increase by +1 per level, but different classes would start higher up the chain. Thus, a 1st level fighter might have a BAB of +5 while a Wizard has a +1. At second level, the fighter's BAB increases to +6, while the wizard's increases to +2, and so on, increasing by 1 every level.

Saves would work the same way.

...or not.

Either way, another thought I had was that maybe this time around, BAB and saves don't stack with themselves when you multiclass- you take the highest of your current value or the class level's when you level up. if you're a fighter 10, taking a few levels of rogue opens up all the nice rogue abilities, but you fall behind in BAB, until rogue gives you a higher BAB or you take more levels of fighter. This would keep numbers low and manageable, rather than having them inflate as much as they do in 3.x.

Thoughts?

 

[RSKennan]

By "major issues with epic level play" I mean they required a design kludge that didn't jibe with the rest of the system to fix.

 

[charlesatan]

Either way, another thought I had was that maybe this time around, BAB and saves don't stack with themselves when you multiclass- you take the highest of your current value or the class level's when you level up. if you're a fighter 10, taking a few levels of rogue opens up all the nice rogue abilities, but you fall behind in BAB, until rogue gives you a higher BAB or you take more levels of fighter. This would keep numbers low and manageable, rather than having them inflate as much as they do in 3.x.

Thoughts?

I suspect saves will be equal to your character level. Speeds up any math and there's no "save inflation" due to multiclassing. Each class just has an additional "class bonus" to a particular save (see Saga Edition). If it turns out this way, I'm also not surprised as this is how saves are computed in Mike Mearls's Iron Heroes and in the D&D Miniatures game.

Also, since there are 25th-level spells in the game, I suspect spell levels 1-20
correspond to the pre-epic levels (ie. if you're a 5th-level wizard you have access to 5th level spells) and then when it hits epic, you just get a spell one every two levels.

 

[RSKennan]

Chalk it up to being my 3rd late night in a row, but my OP doesn't make sense even to me at this point. Sorry for the flawed logic, my original idea seems to have gotten lost on the way to the keyboard.

I'll try to post coherently tomorrow.

Until then, does anyone have any sane posts on the topic?

 

[charlesatan]

I think the biggest "math difference" won't be on the part of the players but on the DM side.

For example, monsters. I think what they're planning to do is a range of numbers given to numbers depending on their level. For example (arbitrary numbers), a level 5 monster's AC might be in the range of 20-25 depending if it's a brute or spellcaster (as opposed to 3.0 where the range is infinite) and it might have an attack bonus of +5 to +10. In many ways, this is better than the sometimes imprecise math of slapping nonassociated levels to monsters or advancing them by hit dice. That prevents monsters like the ten-headed shrieking terror (Monster Manual III) which is a CR 13 monster that has a DC 34 shriek that paralyzes PCs.

 

[Szatany]

I suppose it could work. Would be weird to play a 30th level wizard with +26 BAB though. I'm all for doing this to saves however.
This class bonus you speak about, is it given on the first level or spread throughout entire advancement?

 

[charlesatan]

This class bonus you speak about, is it given on the first level or spread throughout entire advancement?

It's a flat bonus. For example, a Fighter might get a +2 class bonus to Fort saves and a +1 bonus to Will saves. So a 5th-level Fighter gets a +7 to Fort, +5 to Ref, and +6 to Will (not factoring in ability score bonuses). The thing with class bonuses is that they don't stack, only the highest applies. Say the Rogue's class bonus is +2 to Ref and +1 Will. A 5th-level multiclass Fighter/Rogue will get a +7 to Fort (+2 class bonus from Ftr), +7 to Ref (+2 class bonus from Rogue), and +6 to Will (+1 from either class). With this system, there's only so much save bonuses you can gain from extreme multiclassing. In the Star Wars Saga System, the save bonuses usually amount to +3 total (usually +2 to one save and +1 to another save). If you followed such a method, the most you could raise your saves is an extra +2 to each one and that assumes you multiclassed thrice in classes that have a different "good" class bonus. Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian multiclass characters don't end up with an insanely high Fort save.

 

[jasin]

We all know that the varied scales for advancement of BAB and Saves were one of the major issues with epic level play. What if this time around there are no differences between the progressions? Each might increase by +1 per level, but different classes would start higher up the chain. Thus, a 1st level fighter might have a BAB of +5 while a Wizard has a +1. At second level, the fighter's BAB increases to +6, while the wizard's increases to +2, and so on, increasing by 1 every level.

I don't think they will (or should) go that route, but I think some way to close the gap a bit is likely. Saga, for example, has only two types of BAB progressions: fighter-like and rogue-like.

Saves would work the same way.

For saves, I wouldn't at all be surprised at something like Saga or Iron Heroes: save bonus = level + stat + flat bonuses from class, feats and the linke.

Either way, another thought I had was that maybe this time around, BAB and saves don't stack with themselves when you multiclass- you take the highest of your current value or the class level's when you level up. if you're a fighter 10, taking a few levels of rogue opens up all the nice rogue abilities, but you fall behind in BAB, until rogue gives you a higher BAB or you take more levels of fighter.

This would suck for even and near even multiclasses. A Ftr8/Rog12 would have BAB +9, weaker than a wizard!

I'd want to go the other way, making even multiclasses more viable, compared to just dipping a bit for a couple of new abilities.

 

[Aloïsius]

A 30 level wizard with a bab of 15 is a problem because the lvl 30 fighter has +30 ? It's something I never understand with the ELH, because, as far as I know, a 30 lvl wizard use BAB only for touch attacks. The ones that ignore armor, natural armor and shield. Which, at lvl 30 is usualy a total higher than 15...

So, keep the BAB like it works in 3e !
Just add a magical BAB (at least one, maybe two if arcane and divine are REALLY different), wich will allow you to beat the defense of your target.

Saves are not that hard to fix : just like skills had only a x3 multiplier at first level, the +2 bonus of good save don't stack. Complete the system with a fractional save progression (rounded down), so that a rog5/wiz 5 has : fort +3 ; ref : +7; wil +7.

 

[FlameFrost]

A 30 level wizard with a bab of 15 is a problem because the lvl 30 fighter has +30 ? It's something I never understand with the ELH, because, as far as I know, a 30 lvl wizard use BAB only for touch attacks. The ones that ignore armor, natural armor and shield. Which, at lvl 30 is usualy a total higher than 15...
.

The problem with that is not really the pure casters , but the secondary fighters like rogues clerics and monks , because the difference becomes too great between them and the full BAB classes . A difference of 5 is already big enough