More questions about pesky undeads.

[Dark_Juggernaut]

So my DM has us fighting a group of vampires. I'm a Dragonfire Adept and say I want to use a slowing entangling breath on them. Problem is that the slow BREATH is a fort save, whereas the slow SPELL is a will save, and undead are "immune to all fort save effects that don't work on objects". We end up house ruling it to a will save from then on, which I don't have much to complain about.

Later on this vampire I'm chasing and keeping slowed/entangled takes gaseous form. There's nothing I can find that states they're immune to slow, entangle, or even have freedom of movement (which I figured the form had, go figure). He rules until otherwise concluded, the form free's the vamp from my effects, but uses it's turn to do so.

I blasted the blood sucker either way, but I thought I'd get some outside opinions on it all.

 

[Runestar]

A copper dragon's slow breath is a fort save as well, so RAW, it would have no impact on undead. Just another kink in the rules, I suppose.

 

[Noumenon]

Entangling breath? How's that work? My first thought was something that looked like lightning breath but was actually a network of branches, but it seems weird to have that come out of your mouth. My second thought was that it's blowing a giant bubble of bubble gum that then pops and entangles everyone

 

[Runestar]

My guess is a cone of gas which rapidly thickens into some sort of sticky gel and clings on to whatever it comes in contact with. Something like those party streamers aerosol spray cans.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

There are also Spell Compendium Slow effect spells that use a fort save to negate the slowing effect. Slow is just one of thsoe conditions that can be fort or will, depending on the source. IMO, your breath should not have worked on the undead to begin with and been left as a fort save.

 

[SnowHeart]

In light of the fact that a fort save for the effect is not unusual and probably is not a typo or oversight, that's what I'd go back to, in which case it's a moot point b/c the undead would be immune.

 

[Dark_Juggernaut]

Then the undead is indeed immune to it. Thanks for the input folks

Any consensus on gaseous form? A critter in gaseous form (non-undead) doesn't have any freedom of movement and can be ensnared/slowed ect.? I can see slow working but something like vines or a net I figured they could escape from pretty easily...right? It's just odd there's no mention of this in the rules for it.

 

[SnowHeart]

You'll probably get different answers on that, but I think you're on the right track. I don't think it's clearly addressed. I assume if you went RAW, absent a statement that there is immunity then the effect would apply, but to the extent the spell or effect relies on physical contact, it doesn't make much sense. So, I would just rule that the Slow would continue to work, but an entangling effect probably wouldn't (though it might depend on the description of the effect/spell). (Might be something on this in the Rules Compendium, but I don't have my copy in front of me.)

 

[Noumenon]

I would say the question is whether "insubstantial" is defined anywhere. The word is mentioned in the Incorporeal entry on the Special Abilities page, but that's not a clear definition to me.

Incorporeality

Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies. Such creatures are insubstantial and can’t be touched by nonmagical matter or energy. Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects.

 

[Runestar]

The fact that you get only dr10/magic in gaseous form might suggest that you are for most part still fairly solid, and would still be affected by entangling effects?