More Shadow Conjuration questions...

[Nareau]

I'm an 8th level sorcerer. I have Spell Focus: Illusion (version 3.0), and the errata'd Spell Thematics. Shadow Conjuration is my 4th level thematic spell, giving me a +1 caster level. I have a 20 Cha.

I cast Shadow Conjuration to send a Shadowy Melf's Acid Arrow at a bad guy. First, I make a ranged touch attack. I hit! Next, he makes a save vs. Illusion (DC 10 + 5 Cha + 4 Spell Level + 2 Spell Focus: Illusion = 21). He fails! Now, I do my 2d4 damage. I can look forward to doing a total of 8d4 damage to my opponent, since Shadow Conjuration is my Spell Thematic spell, treating me like a 9th level caster for it.

But the bad guy drinks a potion of Invisibility. Oh no! So I cast Shadow Conjuration to mimic Glitterdust. He makes his save vs. Illusion (DC 21) and succeeds! Oh no! He knows it's not real. So there's only a 20% chance he'll be blinded. I roll good on my d100, and that effect still goes through. But now he gets to make another will save (DC 21) to avoid being blinded. So if I understand correctly, there's only a 20% chance that he'll be covered in glittery particles. Or is there?

Just because he disbelieves in the Glitterdust, that doesn't mean the rest of the world does. Do my friends make saves vs. Illusion, and success means that they know it's an illusion, so they only have a 20% chance of seeing him? They can actively choose to believe that he's covered in glittery particles, right? Can I, even though I know for sure it's just an illusion?

Ach, my brain hurts.

Just to throw in a monkey wrench: The description of Shadow Conjuration specifically says, "Mimicked spells allow the normal saves and SR." When they say "normal," what does that mean? Does that mean thay the save vs. Glitterdust-blindness is only (10 + 5 Cha + 2 Spell Level)

Spider

 

[Pax]

But the bad guy drinks a potion of Invisibility. Oh no! So I cast Shadow Conjuration to mimic Glitterdust. He makes his save vs. Illusion (DC 21) and succeeds! Oh no! He knows it's not real. So there's only a 20% chance he'll be blinded. I roll good on my d100, and that effect still goes through. But now he gets to make another will save (DC 21) to avoid being blinded. So if I understand correctly, there's only a 20% chance that he'll be covered in glittery particles. Or is there?

Just because he disbelieves in the Glitterdust, that doesn't mean the rest of the world does. Do my friends make saves vs. Illusion, and success means that they know it's an illusion, so they only have a 20% chance of seeing him? They can actively choose to believe that he's covered in glittery particles, right? Can I, even though I know for sure it's just an illusion?

You can always voluntarily fail your saving throw. Also remember ... Shdow Conjuration is partly real, even if you do make your save. So, you might see DIMMER sparkles, but, he's sparkly nonetheless.

The same goes for your allies.

The "20% real", btw, isn't a chance it's real after all, it's what portion of the effect is non-illusory. Take a 10d6 fireball mimicked with Shadow Evocation, chucked at some unlucky fellow or other. Let's say the fireball does slightly more than average ... 40hp of damage.

So, he get two saves -- one vs illusion (will), one vs the fireball (reflex).

Make both: he takes half of 20% of 40, or, 4hp damage.
Make will, fail reflex: he takes 20% of 40, or, 8hp damage
Fail will, make reflex: he takes half of 40, or, 20hp damage
Fail both: he sucks teh whole 40hp of damage.

Ach, my brain hurts.

Just remember: someone else's save NEVER affects how a spell works on YOU.

Just to throw in a monkey wrench: The description of Shadow Conjuration specifically says, "Mimicked spells allow the normal saves and SR." When they say "normal," what does that mean? Does that mean thay the save vs. Glitterdust-blindness is only (10 + 5 Cha + 2 Spell Level)

Spider

No, it means, follow the mimicked spell's description and stat block WRT what saves the person gets to make, and what effects a successful (or failed) save has. IOW, he actually GETS the will save to avoid blindness, even if he didn't make the will save to disbelieve the illusory component. For the fireball example above, even if the will save to disbelieve the illusion is a failure, the victim(s) still GET their reflex save to halve the damage.

 

[Jalkain]

Re: Re: More Shadow Conjuration questions...

You can always voluntarily fail your saving throw. Also remember ... Shdow Conjuration is partly real, even if you do make your save. So, you might see DIMMER sparkles, but, he's sparkly nonetheless.

Okay, so what happens if you use Shadow Conjuration to cast Mage Armour. Do you get the bonus or not? Do you need to fail the save? Does your opponent need to fail the save? Are there circumstances in which you only get 20% of the spell's benefit?

Make Illusion your barred school! Do it now, before your brain implodes!

 

[Pax]

Re: Re: Re: More Shadow Conjuration questions...

Okay, so what happens if you use Shadow Conjuration to cast Mage Armour. Do you get the bonus or not?

Depends; keep reading.

Do you need to fail the save?

Note that you can ALWAYS voluntarily fail your save (you're assumed to do so when the party cleric casts Cure Moderate Wounds on you, for example).

Does your opponent need to fail the save?

I would say ... yes. They would GET that save, the first time they attack you and miss because of the +4 AC bonus of the mage armor.

Are there circumstances in which you only get 20% of the spell's benefit?

Not 20% of it's benefit exactly (which boils down to "nothing", as you cannot get +0.8 AC), but, since SOME of the force effect around you is [shadow]-based, every time you are struck by someone who has made their save to disbelieve (see above), there is a 20% chance you get the armor bonus ANYway.

And, actually ... I like illusion. I like illusionist specialist wizards ... and for a Sorceror, nothing ups your versatility like the (Greater) Shadow ___ spells, and the like.

I've got a sorceror in a 1st-level arena ... and against other 1st and 2d level opponents, color spray absolutely ROCKS (save DC is 18, heh).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: More Shadow Conjuration questions...

Note that you can ALWAYS voluntarily fail your save (you're assumed to do so when the party cleric casts Cure Moderate Wounds on you, for example).

Has it ever been confirmed that non-undead are actually entitled to a save against Cure spells?

The Save for CLW is "Will half (see text)", and the text mentions that undead may save for half damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

See, Hyp, I'm of the opinion, that if it allows one type of target a save, ti allows it to all, <i>unless the save is specifically denied to one or all of the other types of target.</i>

For example, your non-undead Forsaker can always try and resist "unwanted healing magicks" and make his or her save for half effect, in order to not lose their benefits for 24 hours.

Otherwise, the enemy cleric could cast a Cure Light Wounds spell on the Forsaker, and deny said forsaker all of thei hard-won abilities.

So unless the stat block asys "Save: None", and/or the description specifically denies a save to some class(es) or other of target(s) ... I allow a save.

 

[Hypersmurf]

See, Hyp, I'm of the opinion, that if it allows one type of target a save, ti allows it to all, unless the save is specifically denied to one or all of the other types of target.

Hmm. Okay, reading it again, I think the "See Text" probably refers to the "Harmless", not to the "Will Half".

Objection withdrawn

-Hyp.