Morpheus and DnD

[DM_Matt]

Re: ...

When i buy a book i own it, its my book. Same if i go buy
a CD or anything else.

Harlequin

Not necessarily. Software, unlike books, is a licenced product. You do not own software that you purchase. Rather, you purchase a license to use it wherein the owner can add any restrictions that they want to it. They can put pretty much any condition that they want on their software as long as it does not force you to break the law. You agree to the license contract by opening the CD sleeve, if it has a seal that says so, or when you click "Agree" in the installer.

Books are somwhat different, because you really do own the physical book, but once you reproduce it, the law becomes an intellectual property and licensing issue.

 

[SableWyvern]

That would be the reason why I can't lend them the pdf format. Now, what happens to books that are published in pdf? Can I lend the file to a friend?

Disclaimer: Again, I must point out that I have no legal qualifications whatsoever.

As far as I know, you own that pdf, and can give it to anyone you want. If you do give it away, you can't keep a copy for yourself, though. Similarly, you can make as many copies as you want, as long as they stay on your computer, or on disks that don't go to anyone else.

EDIT: DM Matt posted while I was typing. Grrr. Anyway, I think the concept behind my post still stands. Change "that pdf" to "a licence to use that pdf". As far as I know, you don't need a special licence to sell software (can you imagine a store needing to satisfy Microsoft's requirements in order to stock their products?), so effectively you can freely distribute software that you have "purchased" legally.

 

[gregweller]

And, of course, it is still legal to walk into any public library in the country and check out a book you don't own, read it, take it back and then not buy the book because you already read it. For instance, I'm reading this book right now, called 'Cultivating Delight'. I first heard about it on NPR and placed a hold on it in our library's OPAC (in library-speak an Online Public Access Catalog). I did note that we had only one copy of it. Several people had read it before me, and then I got it in a couple of weeks. As I said, I'm now reading it and I'll return it so a number of other people will read it without buyng it. There is not a whole lot of difference between that and a file-sharing service like Nutella, Morpheus or Kazaa. I would argue that the library interloan service Worldcat (which I'm sure Eric is familiar with), is perhaps the original online file sharing service. I remember a stink a couple of years ago, where a group of housewives in Tenn. were threatened with lawsuits because they were scanning and sharing files of a knitting magazine. They were stunned because they said that this was something they always did--only that they would hand it to the neighbor next door instead of emailing it. I'm sorry, but I just refuse to get all upset about this.

 

[Harlequin]

Re: Re: ...

In your favour, you did say this:
that doing something morally wrong is ok, because it's your choice.
Certainly a very poor defense.

Im not saying that its ok and im not defending my actions

what im saying is that it's my choice
there is a difference

im very strong on choice...its just me

Ive been ripped off way too many times from the music Industry or the Games/Software Industry to let them ever get a red cent from me again...bitter yes

I will dload songs and games and play them and MAYBE if i think the company did some great work i will go buy it...

It has only ever happend once...BALDURS GATE franchise
I went and bought those games IWD included

I WILL buy Neverwinter Nights...because of many reasons
One main reason is to support 3E

Technically, and regading Law dloading games and music
is wrong...sorry tuff...i dont care...not getting screwed by those money hungry corprate &^%*( again...


Just one last thing

Close down the internet today

and all these winging crying corpprate companies bottom line would be halved overnight

the internet is the best thing to ever happen for business

and if you dont believe that...your deluding yourselves


Harlequin

 

[SableWyvern]

Gregweller: Interesting point. There is one slight difference though, in that you don't get to keep a book that you borrow from a library.

Still, its the most reasonable argument I've heard for filesharing, one a little more thoughtful than saying "the law is stupid" or "its going to happen anyway, so why bother trying to stop it".

 

[Henry@home]

...As far as I know, you don't need a special licence to sell software (can you imagine a store needing to satisfy Microsoft's requirements in order to stock their products?)

Henry Grins widely

Yes, you do - with Microsoft's Academic products line.

Having worked in a "Mom-and-Pop" Computer Store in my career, I can tell you that Microsoft are Sticklers with small retailers selling their Academic products line. If you don't have all the requirements (Name, License, Academic Certification such as College Id, Professorial ID, etc.) then you ain't supposed to sell it.

OTOH, Large Discount Retailers of Certain Size and Fame (who shall remain nameless ) flagrantly break these standards at all times (and never get caught), and it drives the Mom-and-Pop shops not only crazy but out of business in many cases. I know first-hand of one employee of a small retailer, who, as a test, walked into one of these mass-retailer stores, and purchased a Microsoft Academic copy with no credentials at all! Even when it was reported, no additional action was taken. Why? Because in my opinion, Microsoft does not want to lose the volume pricing with this particular chain, and so small indiscretions such as this go unpunished.

This kind of stuff goes on everyday - but it doesn't make it legal. Morality and ethics are very difficult to argue in any forum on this issue - but the question of legality is usually pretty clear by reading the statutes.

 

[Harlequin]

...

I wonder how this happends

Quote "i could care less"

If you think copywrite laws are bad just say "I'm breaking this law because I don't take it seriously and I don't care." The justifications and finger pointing is ridiculous.

Quote "i could care less"


Harlequin

 

[gregweller]

Gregweller: Interesting point. There is one slight difference though, in that you don't get to keep a book that you borrow from a library.

Agreed, but to a certain extent it depends on your definition of 'keep'. If you're talking about intellectual property, and that is what we're talking about, then 'keep' can just mean 'keep in my mind'. I realize that this arguement breaks down somewhat depending on your memory, but those with a photographic memory (which I'm not claiming to have), really would be 'keeping' that book/article/whatever in a very real sense.

 

[Lizard]

Do you consider it a theft when you try a car before buying it? Do you consider it a theft when you hear a song on the radio before buying the CD? As I said, I've already preordered D&Dg and the ELH. If I can find it (illegally, I admit that), the only thing it will change is that I'll be able to read the book before I'd normally be able. I disapprove as much as you do the fact that people steal books from companies. But I won't admit I'm a thief unless I'm one.

Well, do you ASK THE OWNER OF THE CAR FOR A TEST DRIVE FIRST??? If yes, then, you're not a thief. If no -- if you just hop in the car because you "might buy it someday", then, yes, you are.

As for the radio -- uhm, dude, the people who own the radio station bought the song and pay the record company.

If these are the best examples you can come up with, your logic is as poor as your ethics.

If I'm uncertain about whether or not to buy a book, I read reviews, ask around on the net, or, you know, flip through the book in the game store. I don't slip the book into my briefcase, take it home, read it, then decide to pay for it or not.

Sheesh.

If you're going to steal, at least be man enough to admit. I have stolen plenty of software in my day -- but I never once claimed it wasn't theft. My generation, we were crooks and proud of it! Kids these days, all full of namby-pamby feel-goodism, can't even admit to themselves that they're stealing.

When you download or distribute copyrighted works against the wishes of the copyright holders, you're stealing, period, full stop. If you don't want to think of yourself as thief, stop stealing. Simple, really.

(And, BTW:
Total illegally downloaded MP3s on my system:0
Total downloaded copyrighted game books on my system:0
Total pirated computer games on my system:0)

(Of course, this won't matter. Thieves have a wonderful double standard when it comes to things like this:
Thief:Oh, so you have no stolen goods?
Person:Yes
Thief:Well, you're just as bad as me!

Or

Person:No
Thief:Well, you're just a goody two shoes narc, and I don't care.)

Losers.

 

[turtle]

Re: Re: Re: ...

Im not saying that its ok and im not defending my actions

what im saying is that it's my choice
there is a difference


Harlequin

Bravo... an honest thief... this is a perfectly reasonable position to have...