Morpheus and DnD

[poilbrun]

typical case of an inappropriate comparison. here's a better one: you go to dan's automart and steal one of his cars. you take it for a joy ride then a) you decide you like it and drive it back to the automart where you pay dan for the car... however you still get arrested by the police; or b) decide you don't like the car and abandon it by the side of the road.

like i said before, i'm not saying you should be ashamed of yourself but be honest with yourself. you ARE a thief, regardless of what you think. do i think it is reasonable to try out products before buying them? perhaps. but our personal opinions have nothing to do with the rights of the people who produce the products you want.

OK, my example was maybe inappropriate. But I am not even trying the product before buying it. I already bought it. The only difference is : I haven't received it yet. I mean, the order is already in place, and I will receive the book. I don't see what wrong I'm doing to WotC by downloading the book. It is not illegal to download a MP3 if you own the CD on which the song is. Likewise, it is not illegal to download a pdf version of a book you own. The only illegal thing I'm doing is to get the PDF before actually having the book. But 90% of the time, I already paid for the book when I download it, but the book is waiting to be shipped or on its way to my house.

 

[Wolfspirit]

Well, personally, the only reason I would share D&D PDFs is that I'm currently running two online games (through IRC) of D&D. So far we've been doing ok; I've been putting up maps and anything the players really need to see up in Whiteboard, but there have been times that I really wish I could get everyone on the same page.

I mean, I've got the FRCS. If I were DMing a game where everyone sat around a table every week, it would be easy to just pass the thing around when I needed to. Same thing with pretty much every non-phb book, you only really need one per group (and still get all the same material).

Other than that I'd *really* like everyone to be able to see the 10+ page map of Waterdeep from the boxed set (right now I just scanned in the tiny Keys map) so that people can see what I'm talking about sometimes. However, I've got a couple people playing from Canada, so they can't all DL it as an ESD.

On a side note, I can't believe that people would scan in an entire book. I remember the pain I had just scanning an old Dungeon module when I had someone take over DMing a game partway through, and I don't really want to do that ever again

/*EDIT
Just a quick note, I'm not sure what everyone has, but I know between the two groups I DM we've bought about 16 phbs, 6 FRCS, and a slew of other stuff. I don't think what sharing we've done has hurt WOTC
*/

 

[poilbrun]

I honestly don't understand where people get these self-righteous POV about their copyright infringement. What planet are you people on?
There is a huge amount of self-delusion going on about your own actions. Do you think the world owes you this stuff??

If you want to steal, fine. I do not care. I am just baffled by people trying to justify what they are doing.

Thieves, repeat after me:

"I am downloading this stuff in violation of international copyright laws because
a) i don't think the laws are just
b) i don't think my action has any consequences
c) i don't care what the consequences of my actions are"

It all comes down to the fact that you want the stuff and you don't want to pay for it.

Hey, as I said, I'm willing to pay for it...

Here's a screenshot of my order at amazon (it doesn't look very well, but I didn't want to put too large a file here):

 

[The Oracle]

As long as there are copy machines and the internet, there will be sharing. Anyone not understanding this should not be given sharp things to play with. Preaching to others what they should do is also pretty dense. I am sure anyone copying files will see the light of day thanks to the shining light of your arguments! Juvenile.

And, the only people who have hurt WotC is WotC. And Maybe Hasbro.

If I want pdf's of things I already own (have you TRIED to lug around the books everywhere you go? It's impossible...) then I will get them and use them, and to hell with anyone who says I shouldn't. I guess those same people don't speed or cheat on their taxes either.

Noobers one and all...

 

[turtle]

[makes obscene gesture to the oracle]

i'm not trying to change anybody, just calling them out.

 

[rounser]

The reason why people have such trouble with these issues is because the math is all wrong, and they make analogies with cars which don't apply, and call piracy things it's close to, but not exactly.

In the real world, if I have two widgets, and you take one, I only have one widget left. That's undeniably theft.

In information piracy, if I have two widgets, and you take one, I still have two widgets - but I may have lost the opportunity to sell you a widget. And what right do you have to my widgets anyway? I've worked hard to make them!

That's why the second example has it's own term. Piracy isn't theft, it's piracy. It's a different kettle of fish. Getting your belongings pirated is very different to getting them stolen. Calling it theft serves to confuse the issues involved, IMO.

EDIT: I'm not condoning piracy with this post, but attempting to unblur some terms and issues.

 

[turtle]

i think you are making a semantic distinction that does not exist...

theft: the crime of stealing (collins cobuild english dictionary)

i fail to see why information should be treated any differently than anything else... IE "Hey, you stole my idea!"

 

[poilbrun]

The reason why people have such trouble with these issues is because the math is all wrong, and they make analogies with cars which don't apply, and call piracy things it's close to, but not exactly.

In the real world, if I have two widgets, and you take one, I only have one widget left. That's undeniably theft.

In information piracy, if I have two widgets, and you take one, I still have two widgets - but I may have lost the opportunity to sell you a widget. And what right do you have to my widgets anyway? I've worked hard to make them!

That's why the second example has it's own term. Piracy isn't theft, it's piracy. It's a different kettle of fish. Getting your belongings pirated is very different to getting them stolen. Calling it theft serves to confuse the issues involved, IMO.

EDIT: I'm not condoning piracy with this post, but attempting to unblur some terms and issues.

I'm pretty sure I have the right to create an electronic version of a book I own, just as I have the right to create a MP3 from a CD I own (else, MP3 players wouldn't exist). As such, I don't see what I'm doing wrong by downloading a pdf version of the book I own, except saving me the hassle of scanning the book . As far as WotC is concerned, a DM who buys a Player's Handbook and lends it to his players so that they can make characters is even more of a thief than I am (not really true as the SRD exists, replace Player's Handbook by Tome & Blood). Heck, if you want to go that far, you could even say that a DM who buys the FRCS and plays with players who do not have the book is damaging WotC's IP : after all, he uses terms that are trademarked by WotC without their consent.

 

[SableWyvern]

Without asking for it, or even knowing that he had it, a friend gave me a CD full of pirated 2e and 3e material. I don't know if accepting and making use of that was technically illegal or not. I do know that if not for that CD, I would not have gone out and started buying 3e material. So, in this limited circumstance, WotC wins.

Having said that, those who support their own piracy by saying things like they buy the stuff anyway (or even already), are missing one point: in participating in such acts of piracy, they are perpetuating the illegal market, and supporting all those who will never pay a cent for what they receive. It remains illegal. Breaking a law is not ok just because you don't think anyone is going to be hurt by your actions.

Of course, as I first stated, I have received and utilised pirate material myself. I've also j-walked, driven over the speed limit, launched a para-flare in a built-up area (one of the dumbest things I've done - lucky I didn't burn a house down), provided alcohol to minors, smoked dope etc...

There are many, many, things that are, rightly or wronly, accepted by society a ok, even if technically illegal. I dunno. My original point was originally meant to back turtle. All these things are illegal. Are they wrong? I think so, but I still do them (well, not all of them, but some, and others).

I'm really starting to ramble, and if not incoherrent yet, will be shortly shall be, so here ends my post.

 

[rounser]

I'm pretty sure I have the right to create an electronic version of a book I own, just as I have the right to create a MP3 from a CD I own (else, MP3 players wouldn't exist). As such, I don't see what I'm doing wrong by downloading a pdf version of the book I own, except saving me the hassle of scanning the book . <snip>.

I fail to see why you quoted my message. I was referring to the difference between piracy and theft, but you're referring to something that sounds like it might be fair use if you own a copy of the book already.