Most advantageous use of 28-point buy for RPGA characters

[Zaruthustran]

I went to a con this weekend and created a character for RPGA play using the 28 point buy method. I noticed that if playing a race with ability bonuses it was advantageous to buy up the ability scores that feature those bonuses, thus gaining a point advantage. For example:

For a human, Strength 17 costs 13 points from his pool.
For a half-orc, Strength 17 (15 plus the +2 Str bonus) costs 8 points from his pool.

The half-orc's +2 Str bonus has allowed him to save 5 points on that 17 Str. Or, looking at it another way, it's gotten him 5 "extra" points to spend on ability scores.

Sure, the -2 Int and -2 Cha cost points. But assuming that the half-orc does not want to have a final score of 12 or higher for those two stats, it only costs him 4 points to "buy off" the penalties.

That's a net gain of 1 point. Effectively, this character has a point pool of 29 instead of 28.

If he doesn't mind a Cha and Int of 6, he can keep all of his point gains and have an effective pool of 33.

My question to the group: what is the most advantageous way to allocate points for a character with +2 / -2 stat adjustments? What about a character with +2 +2 / -2 -2 -2?

What I'm looking for: the point allocation that creates the greatest possible effective point pool.

For example (a wood elf Ranger with +2 Str +2 Dex -2 Int -2 Con -2 Cha):
Str 12 (+2) = 14 (costs 4 points, while a 14 normally costs 6)
Dex 15 (+2) = 17 (costs 8 points but normally costs 13)
Con 14 (-2) = 12 (costs 6 points but normally costs 4)
Int 12 (-2) =10 (costs 4 points but normally costs 2)
Wis 14 = 14 (costs 6 points)
Cha 8 (-2) =6 (costs 0 points)

Total points spent = 28, but if you total the costs of the final stats as if they were purchased outright you'll find an effective total of 31. Thats a 3 point gain.

The above char is not the most optimized; how about some creative ideas for optimized chars of other race/class combos? Try to come up with highest effective points, but also most useful/playable/powerful--what good is a Str 19/Dex 19 Wood elf barbarian if he has an 8 Con?

-z

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

What IS effective?
A Strength20 Fighter is effective - in melee combat, at least. But if he has a 8 in Int, Wis and Cha, he will suck outside, and probably never be able to make something real interesting of himself.

If you want overall performance (especially useful for classes like Monk or Paladin, who need many good stats), choose a broad distribution of points, and increase them via the bonus points gained by levels...
The best way in the short and long run is get the main ability score for the class (Usually Strength for Fighter classes, including Monk, Int for Wizards, Wisdom for Divine Casters, Cha for Sorcerers - quite obvious, isn`t it) to a 15 (before racial adjustment), and than distribute the rest as it fits for your preferences. If you have a bonus to the primary ability score, you can cnsider only make it 14 (before adjustment), especially if the class benefits from good other stats. (Rogue for Int, Wisdom, Charisma, Monk for Wisdom, Intelligence, Dexterity and Constitution and so on)

Well, anyway, in the last weeks I played with the Psionic Classes, and here are some "results":

If you want to create a Nomand (Psion), you will probably have best chances with an Elf. You can have a starting score of 16 in Dex, and use the other stats on Int and Wisdom (never leave home without some Clairsentience powers, I think...) At any level, you will shine using the Bow and with your overall powers.

The best Savant will probably be a Dwarf, maybe a Gnome.

If you want to create a powerful Psionic Warrior, Half Orc or Half Dragon with 6 points on Strength will be perfect.

 

[der_kluge]

And who says that the RPGA is full of min-maxers??

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

And who says that the RPGA is full of min-maxers??

Me. Repeatedly. Every chance I get.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Well, there's a difference between the most advantageous use of a point buy system for a character and the most advantageous use of a point buy system to get the highest stats.

Consider the following example:
32 point buy, half orc fighter/barbarian
Str 16(+2), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10(-2), Wis 10, Cha 10 (-2)
This results in a character who would cost 36 points if he were human. This is pretty close to as good as you can get with a half-orc for effective points.

Str 18 (+2), Dex 12, con 14, int 8 (-2), Wis 14, Cha 8 (-2)
This is a difficult character to quantify since he has a 20 strength which is normally not possible to buy on a point buy system. If you want to play a dumb and rude but tough and strong willed fighter who plans on wearing full-plate, however, this is a better set of stats than the first one.

A more clear example:
Two human fighters:
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8
The first has a total stat bonus of +8
The secont das a total stat bonus of +6 making it a less efficient use of points than the first character.
However, the second set of stats may well be a more efficient construction for standard "tank" fighter. The first set of stats is probably much better for a fighter/cleric (although my fighter/cleric construction would take a 10 dex, 12 charisma, and a 15 in either strength or wisdom depending upon whether he was more fighter or more cleric).

This relates very directly to racial stat modifications. In raw numbers, a wood elf (+2 str, dex, -2 con, int, cha) is superior to a half orc (+2 str, -2 int, cha). However, the numbers don't tell the whole story. The elf's con penalty means that any wood elf character would have to buy a 16 in order to end up with a 14 con. This means that, in general, a human fighter or a dwarf cleric will have as many hit points as a wood elf barbarian. The disadvantage in terms of hit points means that wood elves are not the ideal choice for a front-line tank type character. In fact, half-orcs and dwarves are likely to be vastly superior in those roles. However, the wood elf's bonusses to both dex and str make them ideal archers since the archer's hit points don't come into play as often as their strength and dexterity scores do.

My recommended race/class combos (28 pt buy):
Half orc fighter, or fighter/barbarian:
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 14, int 10, wis 10, cha 10
Half orc barbarian
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8
Dwarf Fighter
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, int 10, wis 10, cha 10
Dwarf Cleric
Str 14, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 10
Elf Fighter/Wizard (bladesinger)
Str 15, Dex 16, Con 12 (+2 toad), Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
Grey Elf Wizard
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 10
Wood Elf Ranger/Rogue (melee focussed)
Str 17, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8
Halfling Rogue
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
Human Fighter
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Human Barbarian
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Human Wizard
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10
Human Cleric (melee type)
Str 14, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 12
Human Cleric (non-melee type)
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 14
Human Paladin
Str 15, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14
Human Bard
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15
Human Sorceror
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 15
Human Monk
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10

As you can see, I'm not much of a fan of dump scores. I prefer playing somewhat more balanced characters to ones who excel in combat but can do nothing outside of it. I also don't think it's worth buying anything higher than a 16 on point buy. (At least not when you only have 28 or 32 points to play around with). Expanding these characters to 32 points, I'd probably bump most of the 15s and 17s up to 16s and 18s. For characters who follow the 14, 14, 14, 14, 10, 10 model, I'd probably bump their primary scores up to a 16 or two 15s. For characters who follow the 16, 14, 14, 10, 10 model, I'd consider bumping one or two of the 10s up to a 12. (I made 32 point a fighter/barbarian with the following scores str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 12, wis 12, cha 10. This gave him some skill points for cross class skills, and a slightly better will save (always a weak point for fighter/barbarians). It also lets me multi-class him into a fighter/barbarian/cleric if I want to).

 

[Zaruthustran]

Thanks for the recommendations Elder-Basilisk.

It became very clear to me that the RPGA was full of min-maxers
when I joined the table and discovered that we had a party of a Fighter, Fighter, Barbarian, and Barbarian, and my character had the highest Cha by far (10).

Point-buy encourages, even demands min-maxing. You're given a pool of points, and you must construct the best (most survivable) character using that pool and a very structured buy system.

The RPGA is *not* a campaign. Chances are, you will never, ever, play with any of the same characters you meet in your first adventure. You're gaming in 4-hour time blocks with a DM and fellow players who all have something to do at the start of the next four-hour time block. There's no time for character development; you have to get through the module.

*Of course* the RPGA is full of min-maxers. Duh.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Zaruthustran: Your observation is only valid for RPGA members who only play or primarily play their PRGA characters at conventions. For members who rarely, if ever, go to conventions, and who primarily play their characters in sessions run by a local gaming group, character development outweighs survivability, and role-playing takes precedent over min-maxing.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Oh?

Wait - so you can play your RPGA character in local games, but still accrue "official" xp/etc.? How does that work? Can I play my RPGA character with my usual gaming group, or must I play with other RPGAers? I have to tell you, and no offense to other RPGA members, but some of the RPGA guys at the con were pretty scary. You know the stereotype: unwashed, undeoderized, rules lawyers.

Please, tell me more. (genuine interest)

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

Re: Oh?

Wait - so you can play your RPGA character in local games, but still accrue "official" xp/etc.? How does that work? Can I play my RPGA character with my usual gaming group, or must I play with other RPGAers? I have to tell you, and no offense to other RPGA members, but some of the RPGA guys at the con were pretty scary. You know the stereotype: unwashed, undeoderized, rules lawyers.

Please, tell me more. (genuine interest)

As an RPGA member, you can order modules for a "home gameday" and play them at home. The down side is that if the DM hasn't played that module yet, s/he has to "eat it"--they can never play it, since they've judged it.

I used to play mainly at cons, but I played with a lot of the same people. It's (usually) a lot of fun to see the same people over and over, and at the same time get the variety of playing with different people, too.

Now, I do both. Play at a lot of locals cons, and also play/judge Living Greyhawk at home gamedays. Not always the exact same group, but I usually only plan to run a home gameday when one of my friends says, "Hey, I haven't played this mod yet. Can you run it for me?" But we often post invitations for the empty spots on our local RPGA list, so we still get to meet new people/characters quite a lot.

Anyway, you can play the RPGA mods at home. You have to be a member, and with the current changes, you may have to pass the (open book) DM test. Logon to the RPGA web site with your RPGA number, and click on the "Ordering Events" link to set up a home gameday. Same regional rules still apply--you can only order Highfolk modules in Wisconsin, Verbobonc in Illinois + Indiana, Perrenland in Australia, etc.