Most broken prestige classes?

[pawsplay]

Yes, it hardly matters if you are starting out the character at 20th level. Does matter if your character concept wants the earliest possible qualification for Ur Priest.

On the other hand, if you're shooting for Wiz 9, why are you in a hurry? Hello 5th level spells. After that's, a refreshing two level dip in the pool and off to the beach for some awesome.

 

[Elemental]

I always thought the Weretouched Master from Eberron was terribly broken. Not necessarily because of power level, but because it is imbalanced within itself. When you get the ability to turn into your alternate form, you can choose (If I remember correctly) werebear, weretiger, werewolf or wererat.

Well let me see, I can get enormous strength, enormous toughness and a ton of natural armour, or I can be a rat, with a relatively tiny bonus to dexterity. Plus I have to be a rat.

Choices choices. I wonder how many people chose the rat? Or indeed, anything other than the werebear?

That got errated. I think it was that you could change into the relevant animal form with your shifting, and also got +6 in relevant physical abilities when shifting.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Mystic Theurge is fine if you actually have to play through the levels. Starting at first, and suffering mightily till roughly 7th level, and not really starting to shine till about 11th is great for balance. But if you start at 13th or so, it is pretty sweet, but I wold argue it is not unbalanced.

Of course those who think they can take 11+ levels of it pre-epic break the class for sure. But I cannot figure out how they think they actually can......

 

[rgard]

Mystic Theurge is fine if you actually have to play through the levels. Starting at first, and suffering mightily till roughly 7th level, and not really starting to shine till about 11th is great for balance. But if you start at 13th or so, it is pretty sweet, but I wold argue it is not unbalanced.

Of course those who think they can take 11+ levels of it pre-epic break the class for sure. But I cannot figure out how they think they actually can......

Agreed, living through the progression from 1st level is much harder than starting at 13th level. You're character is a relative punk up until you are casting 5th level arcane and 5th level divine spells.

I think the 11+ level prc discussion is based on an AH with his/her 10 levels of AH then moving on to MT for the remaining 4 levels prior to Epic:

Wiz3/Druid3/AH10/MT4

So the rationale was that if a character could do this legally (tacking on MT after maxing AH) why not just let the MT advance to 14th level.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[rgard]

Given the highly effective spell progression of this class, and the relatively low pre-requisites, this is no surprise to me. However, there are two things I would like to note about this class.

There are at least 2 versions of this class. One in the Complete Divine, with Spell Focus(Evil) as a pre-requisite. The other is in the Book of Vile Darkness, with Malign Spell Focus as a pre-requisite. I suggest going with the BoVD version. The BoVD is slightly more powerful (Malign Spell focus is a +2 to save DC's for Evil spells instead of the +1 for Spell Focus (Evil) ). Using the BoVD version also makes the class slightly more restricted, since the Malign Spell Focus requires a pact with some evil power. In any event, the Ur-Priest is probably much more obviously intended as an NPC class.

As for the other point, I would suggest looking past the purely mechanical aspects of some of these prestige classes. The Frenzied Berzerker, going by the intent of the class, is probably never going to be encountered with anything in the way of support from allies. The Ur-Priest steals power from the gods. Something tells me that the Gods are perfectly capable of defending their turf, what with the devoted followers and stuff.

Now getting back to this thread, what Prestige classes do I consider the most potentially broken?

I would put Mystic Theurge right up there. Strategically, there is no reason for a Sorcerer not to take the class, and only a minor dis-incentive for a Wizard (loss of the meta magic feats). However, those that would take this class are already splitting their advancement between Wizard/Sorcerer and a Divine casting class. At level 20, a standard Wiz / Cleric would have only caster level 10 in both classes to use against But a Wiz 3 / Clr 3 / Mystic Theurge 14 casts as a 17th level caster in each class. Its a hell of a choice, either a Hyper Caster with 9th Clr and Wiz spells, or a Nerfed Caster with 5th level spells in each class.

But if you apply the class with a literal mindset, you can only ever have 10 levels of Mystic Theurge, which means at Char 20, you cast as a 15th level caster, getting 8th level spells only.

But yeah.. Trying to stack Ur-Priest with Mystic Theurge reeks of cheese (though i admit to considering doing just that for a BBEG recently).

As a DM, I would probably say that any stacking of prestige class effects is entirely at my discretion. Prestige classes seem to be balanced in relation to the core classes, not in relation to stacking with one another.

END COMMUNICATION

I think alot of what annoys people about the Ur-Priest is the 9th level spell at 10th level (sure you can get one at 9th level, but you need a godlike wisdom for that.) The reality is the character is probably only going to ever get one 9th level divine spell per day. What does a straight cleric get? 4, I think. It's an interesting trade off...you rush up the spell levels, but in the long run the character is at a serious disadvantage in relation to a MT who progresses a standard cleric.

Kinda reminds me of the lure of the dark side in Star Wars.

The other problem I've found with the Ur-Priest is the caster level. As you are advancing the class, whether as a straight Ur-Priest or as a Ur-Priest/MT your caster level for doing damage and overcoming SR is crap. You may cast a flame strike at 6th level Ur-Priest, but if you have no other caster levels you are doing 6d6 not 9d6 as a cleric does. Once you hit level 10 Ur-Priest, you are only adding 1/2 your other casting levels to caster level 10.

The caster level is a pain at Epic levels where overcoming SR is a constant challenge. I know you can boost that with divine feats and spells, but everything has a cost and taking those feats precludes taking other feats.

I wonder how many of the Ur-Priest, MT and Ur-Priest/MT detractors have ever played one or DM'd one?

I've seen all 3 sides (played one, DM'd a player who played one and used one as an NPC. From personal experience it's not overpowered at all.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Votan]

I think alot of what annoys people about the Ur-Priest is the 9th level spell at 10th level (sure you can get one at 9th level, but you need a godlike wisdom for that.) The reality is the character is probably only going to ever get one 9th level divine spell per day. What does a straight cleric get? 4, I think. It's an interesting trade off...you rush up the spell levels, but in the long run the character is at a serious disadvantage in relation to a MT who progresses a standard cleric.

Kinda reminds me of the lure of the dark side in Star Wars.

The other problem I've found with the Ur-Priest is the caster level. As you are advancing the class, whether as a straight Ur-Priest or as a Ur-Priest/MT your caster level for doing damage and overcoming SR is crap. You may cast a flame strike at 6th level Ur-Priest, but if you have no other caster levels you are doing 6d6 not 9d6 as a cleric does. Once you hit level 10 Ur-Priest, you are only adding 1/2 your other casting levels to caster level 10.

The caster level is a pain at Epic levels where overcoming SR is a constant challenge. I know you can boost that with divine feats and spells, but everything has a cost and taking those feats precludes taking other feats.

I wonder how many of the Ur-Priest, MT and Ur-Priest/MT detractors have ever played one or DM'd one?

I've seen all 3 sides (played one, DM'd a player who played one and used one as an NPC. From personal experience it's not overpowered at all.

Thanks,
Rich

I am a little curious as to how the adding of 1/2 levels in other spellcasting classes works for the UR-Priest caster levels. For example, A wizard 9, Ur-Priest 2, MT 5 -- does he cast divine spells at (4.5+2+5 = 11) or at (4.5+2+5+2.5= 14). This appears to make a large difference.

At 20th level, a Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 could be casting at level 15 or level 20 depending on how you calculate this.

 

[rgard]

I am a little curious as to how the adding of 1/2 levels in other spellcasting classes works for the UR-Priest caster levels. For example, A wizard 9, Ur-Priest 2, MT 5 -- does he cast divine spells at (4.5+2+5 = 11) or at (4.5+2+5+2.5= 14). This appears to make a large difference.

At 20th level, a Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 could be casting at level 15 or level 20 depending on how you calculate this.

When I played the character, I calculated it as the first example: caster level 15 at 20th character level. After failing to penetrate SR a couple of times, the DM and I reviewed my math and he told me to use the second calculation. It was better, but it's still a slow increase at .5 per level after that.

 

[rgard]

I am a little curious as to how the adding of 1/2 levels in other spellcasting classes works for the UR-Priest caster levels. For example, A wizard 9, Ur-Priest 2, MT 5 -- does he cast divine spells at (4.5+2+5 = 11) or at (4.5+2+5+2.5= 14). This appears to make a large difference.

At 20th level, a Wizard 6/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 could be casting at level 15 or level 20 depending on how you calculate this.

BTW, my version has Duskblade 1 instead of Fighter 1. Was eventually annoyed with the 10 level cap on Ur-Priest and carried on with Ultimate Magus (wiz and duskblade) in Epic.

Yes, very munster cheese, but it's my favorite character since 1e.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

BTW, my version has Duskblade 1 instead of Fighter 1. Was eventually annoyed with the 10 level cap on Ur-Priest and carried on with Ultimate Magus (wiz and duskblade) in Epic.

Yes, very munster cheese, but it's my favorite character since 1e.

Must have been a quick campaign as Complete Mage has only been out a few months.

 

[rgard]

Must have been a quick campaign as Complete Mage has only been out a few months.

Originally started with one level of Paladin of Freedom from UA (used to get the bluff skill). Then of course was a fallen paladin of freedom at second level (Fallen PoF 1/Wiz 1).

The duskblade part was a re-engineer of the character I did when the PHB2 came out. The character was 20th level when the Complete Mage came out. Ultimate Magus looked like a good fit for Duskblade and Wizard. True Strike comes in real handy when casting ray spells and the Duskblade gets lots of 1st level spells.

So, not as quick as one may assume.

Thanks,
Rich