Most common house rules and Weapon Finesse.

[Darklone]

Really, if anything, I think Weapon Finesse ought to be applicable to all weapons.

I'd rather see (str mod+dex mod)/2 as a to hit modifier for "realism"... But it is a real bad idea for game balance.

 

[Thanee]

My proposal to my DM was that you get to choose at first level if you want to be a DEX or STR based fighter. He is thinking about it. (By the way, this would not affect my current character, a cleric from a peaceful religion.)

I'd actually just make some weapons DEX-based (rapier, for example), so that you can only use them with DEX and do not need the feat.

I mean, how can the standard training with a rapier (martial weapon proficiency) involve STR-based attacks?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

...why strength (which means: to strike faster and more precise due to better control of your weapon, not to bash harder which will destroy your weapon) is more important than simple speed.

Yep, this would be very well modeled with a minimum strength set for the weapons. To wield a greatsword effectively you just have to be above average in strength, unlike a dagger, which everyone can wield.

And yes, both muscle and coordination are important for speed and precision.

The d20 system is abstract and tries an easy approach. It's also quite obvious, that they chose strength, because a higher force attack is more likely to punch through armor, which in D&D makes you harder to hit, which is - of course - completely wrong (it makes you easier to hit (as it does for touch attacks correctly by limiting your Dex bonus to AC), but weakens the effect of a blow to your body, but they chose to model it in this abstract way for ease of playing - the Star Wars approach, where armor represents damage reduction and AC is only derived from dodge bonuses and the likes, seems more realistic).

I think the point of the rapier, and why it was a very successful weapon for a certain time period, is to pierce chainmail (the predominant armor of that time, IIRC), not to attack faster or anything.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Abisashi]

Trade!

I think it would be reasonable to trade some armor proficiencies for Weapon Finesse; if you are high dex you probably only want light armor at most anyway. I'd allow something like:

-Heavy AP, MAP, +Weapon Finesse
-Light AP, +Dodge

Or maybe,
-HAP, +WFinesse
-MAP, +Dodge
-LAP, +Combat Reflexes/Mobility

Though that would let you get up feat trees faster... hmmm.

 

[Darklone]

The d20 system is abstract and tries an easy approach. It's also quite obvious, that they chose strength, because a higher force attack is more likely to punch through armor, which in D&D makes you harder to hit, which is - of course - completely wrong (it makes you easier to hit (as it does for touch attacks correctly by limiting your Dex bonus to AC), but weakens the effect of a blow to your body, but they chose to model it in this abstract way for ease of playing - the Star Wars approach, where armor represents damage reduction and AC is only derived from dodge bonuses and the likes, seems more realistic).

I think the point of the rapier, and why it was a very successful weapon for a certain time period, is to pierce chainmail (the predominant armor of that time, IIRC), not to attack faster or anything.

Hihihi... this good old discussion once again...

Ah well. The system is much better than it looks like. In real fights, armour either caught a blow or not. There's not much in the range of "lowering damage". To hurt someone in armour, you had to strike more carefully and "more precise", for which you need: Strength.

The rapier got common as soon as people didn't wear any armour anymore. And about dex to hit: even with a rapier you need a lot of strength first to wield it effectively and fast. Only being "quick" by yourself won't let you score hits against a much slower but more seasoned opponent.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I view the Strength stat not a measure of raw muscle power, but more your ability to apply your strength in a useful way. Dex has more to do with hand/eye co-ordination, reflexes and center of balance.

At least that's what I tell my dex fighter, elf obsessed, slightly powergamey player. He comes up with this argument often! Well, he used to, Swashbuckler seems to have shut him up for some reason!

Thanks Alternity!

 

[green slime]

When I run a game, the Weapon Finesse feat is free. The idea of swinging a sword more accurately due to strength is just preposterous.
I don't think any of the game designers have ever studied any fighting styles, armed or unarmed.

Why do combatants take turns to carve each other up? Anyone playing this way has obviously never been involved in any fight, whatsoever. The mere idea is preposterous!

.

 

[robberbaron]

I view the Strength stat not a measure of raw muscle power, but more your ability to apply your strength in a useful way. Dex has more to do with hand/eye co-ordination, reflexes and center of balance.

Exactamundo!

High Dex allows you to act first (bonus to Initiative).
It allows you to duck and dive to avoid being hit (bonus to AC).

High Str allows you to wield a weapon more easily, change its direction of movement quicker as well as apply more force when it hits something.


From the preceding comments it look to me like posters are split into two camps: Those who have used weapons and agree with WoC, and those who haven't and don't.

 

[epicbob]

Sorry for committing such severe thread necromancy but I wanted to suggest another possible implementation for Weapon Finesse.

What if Weapon Finesse was like a reverse Power Attack? Basically, you would sacrifice damage for a higher chance to hit.