Most overrated "broken" things?

[Mistwell]

Hey, look everybody, Mistwell has an opinion!

Note that all your rebuttal really amounted to was "Actually, no they're not overpowered. Those are average, most STINK. You're wrong." Really, you're not offering anything substantive; you're just making your own adamant-yet-vague assertions, so how are you any less guilty of the same crimes you're accusing me of--broad brushes and all that?

I was specific, not general. I named them all. I pointed out the specific ones that were weak, and the specific ones that were average, and explained why I felt that way about them. You cut that part of the post.

See, Mist, the chief problem with what you're trying to do here is that it puts a burden on you that few people could carry without stumbling into the territory of hypocrisy. That sentence alone contained everything you accused me of--a wild generalization with vague particulars. I name you Mistwell of the Broad Brush.

You will note I said "often" and "usually". Not a broad brush.

Here's a wild claim for you: I doubt you know many people more clinical than me.

Well, I'd take you up on that bet for sure

The "Assay Resistance" thread in this forum is actually a good example of what I "usually" do. I present a logical case, talk about it exhaustively, intentionally phrase things in the form of questions to avoid putting words in people's mouths, wait for a suitably articulate rebuttal, and in the end rarely does anybody concede anything or really attempt to mount a counter-arguement. They typically just agree or disagree according to their gut feelings, and that's because that is what self-esteem means to a lot of folks; standing by your gut, and not even feeling like you have to support it (indeed, to do so would be a sign of self-doubt; ever seen Adaptation?). It also happens to require a lot less typing.

Sometimes you do go into that depth. Often, you do not. In this thread, you did not.

To be frank, it's fatiguing to put a lot of time and effort into an arguement that's just going to be hand-waived dismissively anyway, so why do it here? You are convinced of your position, it won't shift, yet you think I should provide a dozen examples anyway?

All I said was quit dismissing huge swaths of material so blithely. If you're gonna bash a book, be specific.

As to my "wild exaggerations", the fact is I provided a quick little list of broken things, no more pretentious than other posts made here. You put a magnifying glass on the issue, you chose not to challenge anyone else's "broad strokes". You are the provocateur here. Tell you what, you rise to the occasion this time instead of playing the easy role of the deconstructionist. And this time, I get to be the guy playing the glib "I'm entitled to my opinion" card. It'll be like a vacation.

A simple "okay I didn't mean the entire book, or the entire class, just some things about them" would have sufficed. It's not that you were being asked to offer a lengthy explanation. It's that you were asked to actually admit you might have painted with too broad a brush.

In the interests of you not getting off on the wrong foot, I'll go ahead and point out that asserting authoritative knowledge of what nobody plays based purely on what people you know play is both hyperbolic and a wild claim.

Nope. I asked if you had heard of anyone taking those classes. How can that be an exaggeration and wild?

Come to think of it, I don't know how solid it is to argue that popularity and brokeness has a strong correlation.

Well, it was the advice of the authors of the books that "would you choose this over other options" is one important factor with the issue. Monte Cook talked about that concept in his journal.

How many folks are really doing the Hulking Hurler War Hulk, despite all the threads that mention it? When was the last time you ran into an anthropomorphic baleen whale Frenzied Berserker? I suspect many DM's say no to them, like they'd say "no" to a lot of BoED content.

Me? I'd wager there's a stronger correlation between what's broken and what people joke about playing, but don't actually try to get away with.

Okay, do people joke about playing most of those prestige classes in Book of Exalted Deeds?

 

[AllisterH]

The thing about the Spiked Chain is that it does cost a feat and frankly, I consider the other exotic weapons broken in that they don't justify themselves being worth a feat.

 

[Felon]

You will note I said "often" and "usually". Not a broad brush.

Mist, it's after midnight where I am, so if it was Bizarro Day, it's now over. "Often" and "usually" actually aren't specific descriptors anymore. They're broad.

Sometimes you do go into that depth. Often, you do not. In this thread, you did not.

You're right, I wasn't trying to win anyone over. I didn't start a thread about the matter. I didn't step up to the podium and make some grand rant. If I had, I'd feel compelled to support it. In this thread, I just shared my personal line-item list of broken stuff. If you want to declare the Book of Exalted Deeds to be unduly maligned, you post the essay, and I'll deconstruct. I'm just not that motivated to attack a book that's on the no-fly list of every DM in my gaming circle, and has been for years. Tome of Battle I have a little more steam for, so pick a fight about that and maybe I can indulge you.

All I said was quit dismissing huge swaths of material so blithely. If you're gonna bash a book, be specific.

I'll be specific when I think it's appropriate. In this case, I feel so much of the content is power-creep personified (not just the prestige classes that you have made the focal point, but also exalted feats and equipment) that I regard the whole thing as a bad product. If folks desire more specificity, then they are free to not make much of my disdain.

Nope. I asked if you had heard of anyone taking those classes. How can that be an exaggeration and wild?

Here's the quote: "The overwhelming majority of prestige classes from the Book of Exalted Deeds are taken by almost nobody."

Not a question, and contains sifnificant exaggeration, unless you do in fact have authoritative knowledge of what nobody plays.

Okay, do people joke about playing most of those prestige classes in Book of Exalted Deeds?

Well, used to be (again, it's not fresh material anymore). The Emissary of Barachiel's ability to make the villains into friends so very easily was kind of a joke, since it could adversely affect a campaign like RHoD where there are lots of evil humanoids to win over.

 

[The Shadow Lich]

Monks are not dirty in themselves. But with vow of poverty and the forsaken prestige class they sure are.

 

[Cameron]

Monks, VoP, spiked chain, Warmage/Rainbow Servant combo, Divine Metamagic: Persistent, Warlocks, Psionics, BoED.

These are all over-rated in the "overpowered" division.

Monks: Looks great on paper, but if you try to actually stand up and fight in melee, you get squished. Let's not even talk about ranged combat. Half the time, even high level monks get wiped by equal level spellcasters. Arcane Mastery effectively makes your SR useless. If the spellcaster have the spell penetration tree on top of AM, a much lower level caster can wipe the floor with you, and being an anti-caster is really the monk's claim to fame.

VoP: Looks great, feels good, and claimed to be powerful at lower levels. Yeah right. I have seen 1st level VoP monks die in the first round of combat despite their uber bonus AC. At high levels, the VoP effects are effectively replaced by equipment, and even sub-standard equipment (ie., in a campaign where the DM disallows buying magic stuff) is enough to replace it. And what you are left with is either a few feats or left to be a no-money moocher.

Spiked Chain: Two words: Huge Monster. More words: 99% of the time.

Warmage/Rainbow Servant: Level 16 to work. Yeah. Like I am scared of a cleric with lower hp, lower AC, boom spells and no Turn Undead at level 16 when we could have had a Wizard in the wings...

DM: Persist: Anyone looked at the opportunity cost of either wasting a feat on extra turning or raising your Cha to 18 *and* the feats wasted to *get* DM: Persist? It is not trivial, especially when we are talking about all that for a once a day ability... And I haven't even taken into account the amount of stuff you are missing out for using up all those Turn attempts.

Warlocks: Ohh look! They have something that they can use all day! Woo-hoo! Yeah right. Once a round, to one target (mainly), at a fairly short range (unless you want to waste one of your 12 precious Invocations to extend it). I'd rather have a limited ammo bazooka that I can use on that tank and a piddly .22 with infinite rounds....

Psionics: One word for ya: Gate.

BoED: I don't know about you guys, but even on a wide open anything goes campaign, I have never used a prestige class from the BoED or any of its feats. Playing an exalted character is like giving the DM a gun to point to your head and a note saying "pull trigger". No thanks.

 

[Felon]

Warlocks are not broken in bang-boom-pow sort of way (unless "broken" can encompass excessive weakness as well as strength), but they can be problematic due to the temptation to spam their invocations endlessly. It doesn't necessarily take godlike amounts of damage-dealing to be disruptive. Unlimited ability to shatter objects or charm creatures or teleport around or conjure up blocks of black chilling tentacles can all be abused pretty handily.

The thing I would have liked to see with warlock powers is unlimited usage, but with a potential price. For example, you can use the charm invocation as often as you like, but if a creature makes its save, it automatically adopts a hostile attitude and be charmed again by that invocation for 24 hours. If fits the flavor of the class and curbs the inclination to spam.

 

[Cameron]

Warlocks are not broken in bang-boom-pow sort of way (unless "broken" can encompass excessive weakness as well as strength), but they can be problematic due to the temptation to spam their invocations endlessly. It doesn't necessarily take godlike amounts of damage-dealing to be disruptive. Unlimited ability to shatter objects or charm creatures or teleport around or conjure up blocks of black chilling tentacles can all be abused pretty handily.

The thing I would have liked to see with warlock powers is unlimited usage, but with a potential price. For example, you can use the charm invocation as often as you like, but if a creature makes its save, it automatically adopts a hostile attitude and be charmed again by that invocation for 24 hours. If fits the flavor of the class and curbs the inclination to spam.

Dude, the creature *knows* you tried to hit it with a compulsion effect. I don't know about you, but if someone tries that on me, you can bet I am going to turn hostile...!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

All that changes when you take Exotic Weapon Master and pick up the Exotic Flurry ability. Since there is no other way for a fighter/barbarian type to get flurry of blows with a useful two handed weapon--or a one-handed weapon--it quickly surpasses other weapons in damage output at that point.

...what damage output? The spiked chain's multiplier is 20/x2, it's possibly the worst weapon for damage output that the world has yet seen.

Casters will eat the Spiked Chain Wielder alive. Our group's casters certainly did.

Brad

 

[SadisticFishing]

All that changes when you take Exotic Weapon Master and pick up the Exotic Flurry ability. Since there is no other way for a fighter/barbarian type to get flurry of blows with a useful two handed weapon--or a one-handed weapon--it quickly surpasses other weapons in damage output at that point.

Potion of Haste, Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed Arcana Barbarian variant).

Sorry to ask, but what is VoP?

 

[Cameron]

Potion of Haste, Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed Arcana Barbarian variant).

Sorry to ask, but what is VoP?

Vow of Poverty. Gives you a fixed set of optimised magic item equivalent bonuses and a couple of bonus feats for a few feats as investment. But you can't have money or equipment of any sort (almost), and have a RP restriction that is like handing your worst enemy a loaded gun and a note that says "kill me".