If you're trying to finish out a synergy tree as quickly as possible, you're actually incentivized to go 4/4 in the qualifying classes, taking the first feat at 7, then the second one at 8, and then advance one of the classes (or heck, start a whole new class) class 4 levels, taking the last feat at level 12.
Level Up (A5E) Motif Classes: An alternative to Synergy Feats and Prestige Classes
- Thread starter Steampunkette
- Start date
W'rkncacnter
Hero
oh jeez, this didn't even register to me honestly
Gnome Rager
Villager
From your reply on the PrC thread I wasn't sure what I thought. This has helped fill it out for me quite a bit.
I completely get what you mean about the character's narrative arc and the need to reduce unforseen interactions. I think you've achieved addressing that. Mechanically I also appreciate the lack of level 5 fomo.
I still think this could lead to bloat, but that is equally true for PrCs and synergy feats. Maybe Narrator curation is the only way to address that. It also feels like a straight power boost on the existing systems. I know that was a part of your aim but at first glance I'm not sure what it does to balance.
I've got a work day today that could be very busy or could be quite light. If I have chance I'll try to have a bit more of a think and play with some ideas
I completely get what you mean about the character's narrative arc and the need to reduce unforseen interactions. I think you've achieved addressing that. Mechanically I also appreciate the lack of level 5 fomo.
I still think this could lead to bloat, but that is equally true for PrCs and synergy feats. Maybe Narrator curation is the only way to address that. It also feels like a straight power boost on the existing systems. I know that was a part of your aim but at first glance I'm not sure what it does to balance.
I've got a work day today that could be very busy or could be quite light. If I have chance I'll try to have a bit more of a think and play with some ideas
Pretty much any added system creates bloat, yeah. The intention was only to try and contain it. Keep it from running rampant.
As far as a power boost... yeah. A bit! If you follow this class from start to finish you'll be doing 1d10 main hand and 1d8 off hand and have the ability to do a single big hit every once in a while with Lancer's Leap, though it does require some setup to achieve. And adding "Parrying" to a bunch of weapon options gives you a good solid reaction choice every round as a defensive boost...
But there's no stunning fists to stack up on top, very little in the way of defensive boosts, and you get less maneuvers and other options than you would if you went straight fighter. Not to mention the lack of Bonus Exertion 'til level 8 when both Fighter and Adept get bonus exertion at 4 and the Adept gets 3 by level 8.
So you gain and you lose, here and there, to specialize. But you also get some Renown and different social options during leveling which, to me, is pretty important.
Mmm... I think the best reasonable use for this Motif Class design might be in setting-specific concepts rather than trying to shoehorn all of them into existing classes? Sort of how Prestige Classes do, time to time, like the Purple Dragon Knight or the Arcane Archer being elf-only for Greyhawk's themes.
Much to think upon.
VenerableBede
Adventurer
I think it’s unfortunate that I’m the first person here with this attitude, but I LOVE the Lancer (gave me strong Windrunner vibes [Stormlight Archives]), which is an automatic win.
But I also think you are hitting the nail on the head with this. Prestige classes and synergy feats are awesome, but they don’t kick in until later in your class progression. I’ve noticed that a lot of people in these forums seem to think that doesn’t matter since the game theoretically goes until level 20, but it really DOES matter. People want to play their special, preferred concept from level 1, if possible, rather than spending weeks or months slogging through setup. I also think the type of people who seek out these forums are much more likely to have campaigns that run longer than most, not less, so aren’t representative of players as a whole.
I think this idea makes class design “easy” in the sense that yeah, you have new ideas and concepts in here, but it’s mostly just well-adapted alterations to Fighter and Adept, with a little Marshall in Sanguine Knot, adapted to the concept. It avoids many of the pitfalls of class bloat by keeping things short and sweet. And I think 8th level is a good jump-off point into other things.
Two personal preferences/ideas:
(1) I like ASIs, half-ASIs, and feats, and I personally would be drawn even more to motif classes if at 4th and 8th level you had the option to get an ASI. I know this is trying to fit in the design space of Prestige Classes and Synergy Feats, which gobble up your ASIs like candy, but I still think giving a +1 to an ability score plus one of the abilities you have above (at 4th/8th) is more than fair. Alternatively, maybe grant only one full ASI, but grant it late, at 6th/7th/8th. Just spitballing.
(2) Since this is like the reverse prestige class/synergy feat tree, coming before a class and serving as a jump-off into other things, I think there should be a note at the end how this class can be allowed to contribute to the classes that mixed to create it. I think this helps create a sense of continuity when multiclassing out of the motif class (if you want one) and allows you to build on certain abilities without feeling the need to build out the motif class to level 20. Some things are already built in here - with how multiclassing rules work with maneuvers, no need to mention that. But you could add, “8 levels of Lancer and 3/4/5 levels of Marshal or Fighter allow you to attack two additional times with Extra Attack,” or “8 levels of Lancer allows you to treat your adept die as one size higher when multiclassing into Adept, and 4/6/8 Adept levels increases your Lancer die to a d10.”
A LOT of the synergy feats/hybrid archetypes that I’ve been working on might be better as a motif class, so if you don’t mind I want to borrow the idea and tinker around with it.
But I also think you are hitting the nail on the head with this. Prestige classes and synergy feats are awesome, but they don’t kick in until later in your class progression. I’ve noticed that a lot of people in these forums seem to think that doesn’t matter since the game theoretically goes until level 20, but it really DOES matter. People want to play their special, preferred concept from level 1, if possible, rather than spending weeks or months slogging through setup. I also think the type of people who seek out these forums are much more likely to have campaigns that run longer than most, not less, so aren’t representative of players as a whole.
I think this idea makes class design “easy” in the sense that yeah, you have new ideas and concepts in here, but it’s mostly just well-adapted alterations to Fighter and Adept, with a little Marshall in Sanguine Knot, adapted to the concept. It avoids many of the pitfalls of class bloat by keeping things short and sweet. And I think 8th level is a good jump-off point into other things.
Two personal preferences/ideas:
(1) I like ASIs, half-ASIs, and feats, and I personally would be drawn even more to motif classes if at 4th and 8th level you had the option to get an ASI. I know this is trying to fit in the design space of Prestige Classes and Synergy Feats, which gobble up your ASIs like candy, but I still think giving a +1 to an ability score plus one of the abilities you have above (at 4th/8th) is more than fair. Alternatively, maybe grant only one full ASI, but grant it late, at 6th/7th/8th. Just spitballing.
(2) Since this is like the reverse prestige class/synergy feat tree, coming before a class and serving as a jump-off into other things, I think there should be a note at the end how this class can be allowed to contribute to the classes that mixed to create it. I think this helps create a sense of continuity when multiclassing out of the motif class (if you want one) and allows you to build on certain abilities without feeling the need to build out the motif class to level 20. Some things are already built in here - with how multiclassing rules work with maneuvers, no need to mention that. But you could add, “8 levels of Lancer and 3/4/5 levels of Marshal or Fighter allow you to attack two additional times with Extra Attack,” or “8 levels of Lancer allows you to treat your adept die as one size higher when multiclassing into Adept, and 4/6/8 Adept levels increases your Lancer die to a d10.”
A LOT of the synergy feats/hybrid archetypes that I’ve been working on might be better as a motif class, so if you don’t mind I want to borrow the idea and tinker around with it.
@VenerableBede They do get ASIs at 4 and 8. I just forgot to do the write up in the class features section. They are listed on the leveling chart, though.
The mechanical extension is also a pretty good idea, yeah. If you wanna tinker, please feel free. Right now this is just an idea floating around in my head, not official material.
The mechanical extension is also a pretty good idea, yeah. If you wanna tinker, please feel free. Right now this is just an idea floating around in my head, not official material.
Gnome Rager
Villager
So it was a busy day but the back of my mind has been thinking about the idea if not the implementation.
Firstly I decided that I need to move this away from what I want to do with PrCs entirely. The idea came from the same thread but it's completely unrelated. That helped me think about this on its own merits a bit more.
So then I started thinking about multiclass pain points, and it's the level 5 power bump that is the main thing in o5e. A delay of 1 level is manageable but with synergy feats you aren't picking up a second attack or third level spells until level 8/9 and that hurts. The feats counter act it a bit but it still hurts. Looking at a5e, you aren't developing the new exploration and social elements of classes as much and I'm not sure an argument of sacrificing depth for breadth is as applicable here. These are things I think your idea addresses well.
I really like Bede's extension idea as well, makes it feel more like a multiclass maybe.
If I get some time I might try and sketch out some generic progression and extension examples that address my worries about power level. For example I don't feel like a motif should be picking up extra attack at the same time as a straight martial character (I know, I know this doesn't mesh with my level 5 fomo). Maybe a motif that blends two martial classes picks extra attack up at 6 whereas a martial and a caster waits until 7/8? Caster levels always feel more complicated but maybe the same hand waving works, 2 caster class motifs get level 3 spells at 6 whereas caster martials wait until 7/8. Making new spell slot tables feels like a lot of work though.
I'll keep mulling. I really like multiclass characters so this is a fun diversion
Firstly I decided that I need to move this away from what I want to do with PrCs entirely. The idea came from the same thread but it's completely unrelated. That helped me think about this on its own merits a bit more.
So then I started thinking about multiclass pain points, and it's the level 5 power bump that is the main thing in o5e. A delay of 1 level is manageable but with synergy feats you aren't picking up a second attack or third level spells until level 8/9 and that hurts. The feats counter act it a bit but it still hurts. Looking at a5e, you aren't developing the new exploration and social elements of classes as much and I'm not sure an argument of sacrificing depth for breadth is as applicable here. These are things I think your idea addresses well.
I really like Bede's extension idea as well, makes it feel more like a multiclass maybe.
If I get some time I might try and sketch out some generic progression and extension examples that address my worries about power level. For example I don't feel like a motif should be picking up extra attack at the same time as a straight martial character (I know, I know this doesn't mesh with my level 5 fomo). Maybe a motif that blends two martial classes picks extra attack up at 6 whereas a martial and a caster waits until 7/8? Caster levels always feel more complicated but maybe the same hand waving works, 2 caster class motifs get level 3 spells at 6 whereas caster martials wait until 7/8. Making new spell slot tables feels like a lot of work though.
I'll keep mulling. I really like multiclass characters so this is a fun diversion
@Gnome Rager
It's worth noting that extra attack is the method by which martial characters do most of their damage with the exception of rogues. But it also kicks in before 8 even for casters.
Spellblade Wizards and College of War Bards all get Extra Attack at 6th level, rather than 5th, just as a way to offset the power-growth of getting their next level of spell. Warlocks, who don't get a higher level of spell access at level 5, instead get Extra Attack as an Invocation option.
I don't think delaying Extra Attack is particularly useful in this situation. Though I certainly wouldn't put extra attack into, say, a Rogue/Warlock Motif class.
It's all about keeping pace with other classes. Making this one delay it's extra attack because an adept/fighter multiclass wouldn't get it 'til later, is just taking things I don't like about multiclassing and trying to codify them into the Motif classes meant to excise the stuff I dislike about multiclassing.
It's worth noting that extra attack is the method by which martial characters do most of their damage with the exception of rogues. But it also kicks in before 8 even for casters.
Spellblade Wizards and College of War Bards all get Extra Attack at 6th level, rather than 5th, just as a way to offset the power-growth of getting their next level of spell. Warlocks, who don't get a higher level of spell access at level 5, instead get Extra Attack as an Invocation option.
I don't think delaying Extra Attack is particularly useful in this situation. Though I certainly wouldn't put extra attack into, say, a Rogue/Warlock Motif class.
It's all about keeping pace with other classes. Making this one delay it's extra attack because an adept/fighter multiclass wouldn't get it 'til later, is just taking things I don't like about multiclassing and trying to codify them into the Motif classes meant to excise the stuff I dislike about multiclassing.
Gnome Rager
Villager
This is a very fair comment, and I completely get where you're coming from. I'm trying to manage my own cognitive dissonance of wanting the character to keep pace and feeling like single class characters should hit land marks sooner. And belive me, there is a good chunk of that cognitive dissonance screaming at me "it would be a single classed character!"
Sword of Spirit
Legend
My copy of the rules has warlock getting new spell levels at the same rate as full casters...?
Similar Threads
Level Up (A5E)
Maneuvers Again: RAW, RAI and Reasonable Rulings
AD6_gamerati_skyscraper
Recent & Upcoming Releases
-
April 16 2024 -
May 31 2024 -
June 3 2024 -
June 4 2024 -
June 18 2024 -
July 16 2024 -
September 17 2024 -
October 1 2024 -
November 12 2024 -
February 18 2025
