Level Up (A5E) Mountebank 3rd level feature question

[Faolyn]

Rapid Response​

Also at 3rd level, you are always ready to wield your magic at the drop of a hat. When initiative is rolled, as long as you are not surprised you can choose to cast a spell with a vocalized component and casting time of 1 action. If you do so, the effects of the spell occur at the start of the first creature’s turn, and on your first turn you do not receive an action.

But do you still get a bonus action and/or reaction?

PCs just hit 3rd level, so I gotta know.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

i don't see why they wouldn't. it only says you don't get your action on your first turn. it says nothing about bonus actions or reactions.

 

[Distracted DM]

i don't see why they wouldn't. it only says you don't get your action on your first turn. it says nothing about bonus actions or reactions.

I guess the only reason that it might come up is the whole "can't cast an action spell and a bonus action spell on the same turn" thing. So this would mean you could cast a leveled spell pre-combat and then a BA spell on your turn. Also, I guess, I think there've been rulings in the past with sage advice etc. saying "if it says you lose your action, that also includes bonus actions and reactions" which is confusing asf.

 

[Pedantic]

I don't see any particular reason why not. It certainly sounds like more fun for the player.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

I guess the only reason that it might come up is the whole "can't cast an action spell and a bonus action spell on the same turn" thing. So this would mean you could cast a leveled spell pre-combat and then a BA spell on your turn.

i mean...if you think that's a problem, you could just say you count as already having cast a spell on your first turn if you use the feature.

Also, I guess, I think there've been rulings in the past with sage advice etc. saying "if it says you lose your action, that also includes bonus actions and reactions" which is confusing asf.

well, sage advice is about o5e. i wouldn't assume any of them apply to a5e unless, say, morrus (or your dm in the case of your own specific game, obviously) says so.

 

[Distracted DM]

i mean...if you think that's a problem, you could just say you count as already having cast a spell on your first turn if you use the feature.

well, sage advice is about o5e. i wouldn't assume any of them apply to a5e unless, say, morrus (or your dm in the case of your own specific game, obviously) says so.

Not disagreeing btw, just presenting reasons why the question may arise in the first place

 

[Faolyn]

i don't see why they wouldn't. it only says you don't get your action on your first turn. it says nothing about bonus actions or reactions.

Yeah, but sometimes action suggests bonus actions and reactions as well. For instance, in the dominate spells, you decide the target's actions and it can't do anything you don't specify--it'd be weird if you could only control its actions but not its bonus actions. Ditto for haste. You're too tired to take actions, so you should be too tired to take reactions as well. So sometimes the RAI isn't as clear as it should be.

 

[Faolyn]

I guess the only reason that it might come up is the whole "can't cast an action spell and a bonus action spell on the same turn" thing. So this would mean you could cast a leveled spell pre-combat and then a BA spell on your turn. Also, I guess, I think there've been rulings in the past with sage advice etc. saying "if it says you lose your action, that also includes bonus actions and reactions" which is confusing asf.

Yeah; I have a strong feeling that the bard's player is going to try this, and I'm not entirely sure how I feel. It feels right that you lose your action but not your bonus action, because you just used your action early, and it would suck to not have anything to do on the first turn actually in combat, but it's worded vaguely enough I wasn't sure.

This is one of those occasions where I wish they had gone with PF2 route and just said you had three actions a turn and this ability took up one of them.

 

[Pedantic]

Yeah, but sometimes action suggests bonus actions and reactions as well. For instance, in the dominate spells, you decide the target's actions and it can't do anything you don't specify--it'd be weird if you could only control its actions but not its bonus actions. Ditto for haste. You're too tired to take actions, so you should be too tired to take reactions as well. So sometimes the RAI isn't as clear as it should be.

I don't think it's generally a good idea to try for technical readings of 5e based material... but, I can imagine a case where "actions" refers to the set of all actions, including bonus, free, reactions, etc, while "action" is narrowly defined.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Yeah, but sometimes action suggests bonus actions and reactions as well. For instance, in the dominate spells, you decide the target's actions and it can't do anything you don't specify--it'd be weird if you could only control its actions but not its bonus actions. Ditto for haste. You're too tired to take actions, so you should be too tired to take reactions as well. So sometimes the RAI isn't as clear as it should be.

dominate person says you "decide all of the target’s actions and it does nothing you do not allow it to" (and also has a clause for getting it to make a reaction), and haste says "the target is tired and cannot move or take actions until after its next turn". this is distinct from the phrasing of rapid response, which says "on your first turn you do not receive an action".

but yeah, the phrasing could definitely be better, and i can see where confusion might arise.