D&D 5E Move Attack Move: Issues with The New Standard for Combat

[Wangalade]

I agree that a major part of the problem is moving through allied spaces, but also looking at the image, the position of the fighter is not the most advantageous.
the purpose of a choke point is to negate the benefits of greater numbers. when two armies fight in a canyon, there are the same number of soldiers on each side fighting each other, so the if one side has more numbers they don't have an impact in the short term. the best way to use a choke point against an enemy with greater numbers is to stand at the mouth of the choke point, or in front of the door not inside the hall. standing at the mouth enables the negation of enemy numbers and also enhances the effectual number of combatants on your side. the fighter would stand just in front of the door, stopping the enemy from entering the room, but two other less effectual combatants could stand on either side and also damage the front line of the enemy.
now this tactic only works if the enemy actually reaches a bottleneck, where the frontline is in the way of the second rank and they are in the way of the third rank, etc. so with that in mind allies should not be able to move through each others spaces. It makes me think of real world bottleneck situations. back when I was a kid going trick or treating, there would be a line up to the front door of a persons house, usually with a garage on one side, and bushes or something else on the other, so once we got our candy it was extremely difficult to retreat past the other people in line. it was just all one big jumble where we were caught on each others clothes and some of us didn't exit the doorway area until everyone behind us had already left. now applying that to melee combat, I wouldn't want to even try that because it would be extremely easy for someone to attack us while trying to get past each other and we couldn't defend ourselves.

 

[Gadget]

That's not really the case though. The person at the front still stops the bad guys from getting to the squishies. They can't get around him, so they have to try and go through him. That part seems fine. The point that seems to be a problem is that going through him is something they can all do at once without allowing a response. That's an initiative problem.

They can't get around him, true. But the other benefit of a choke point, which you seem to be ignoring, is that it prevents one from being surrounded and overwhelmed as quickly, as only a few enemies can attack at a time.



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The orphans can take their actions to run away, right? And if you give these guys axes they can chuck while standing stock-still, you've got the same problem. Again, 4e solos serve a useful comparison: it is not hard to get overwhelmed when all of your enemies go and you don't get a response.

Yes, if there was a place to run away towards. That might not be the smartest action, leaving your only protector behind. Say that was the only exit. What then?

I dunno, when I imagine holding a choke point against a raging tide of enemies, or standing in front of a a firing squad, you are subject to a bunch of attacks. Tough characters (like most fighters) should be able to whether that storm, but the storm still should happen, right?

The purpose of the choke point is that the effect of the storm is lessoned, as only a few of the enemy can come at you at a time, in addition to preventing the enemy from getting past you. That advantage is largely negated by this "conga-line" tactic. One is effectively surrounded even in a narrow place. 4e solos and the action economy don't really figure into it. Give them all axes and, depending on the width of the passage, the ones in front would hinder the ones in back to a large degree, hardly a 'firing squad'.

 

[Argyle King]

How does MaMing work out if you include three dimensional movement?

How easily can someone jump over a foe, hit the squishies behind them and then move/jump away?

 

[howandwhy99]

Chainmail (OD&D) has Split-Move and Fire. That's for ranged attackers though. For hopping out from behind a fence, running to a clear shot, shooting, and then moving back behind cover perhaps in another hiding spot. This is an option other than firing twice in the round. The primary example was archers on horseback. initial movement is limited to half total, but the remainder isn't lost when movement finishes.

Move-Attack-Move in Melee combats removes penalties for moving out of melee without defending. Characters were understood to be constantly attacking and defending in the chaotic brawls of melee. Dropping one's defense makes one easier to attack and allows for attacks to be resolved earlier in the round.

M-A-M in D&D Next has made the game much more mobile, but lost the cost for moving through melee defenders. There is no wall or formation fighting possible. Of course all the options can come back with Unique Abilities (feats, class abilities, etc.), but it means a normal combatant cannot attempt the actions and hope to succeed. It means mass combat won't port as well over to the 1:1 system.

 

[jodyjohnson]

This seems like a situation where the high AC defender at the front needs to take advantage of the Dodge action and rely on his OA attacks for offense.

All the enemies attack at disadvantage while he gets his one free shot per round.

For a formation all the front rank can use the Dodge action and slowly advance to a better position while having their OA attacks still available for enemies that wish to conga.

My preference would be a still over-rule use of the conga-line.


Another option might be to introduce a Formation fighting action which grants an AC bonus with the cost of not allowing allies through your space.

 

[Argyle King]

This seems like a situation where the high AC defender at the front needs to take advantage of the Dodge action and rely on his OA attacks for offense.

All the enemies attack at disadvantage while he gets his one free shot per round.

For a formation all the front rank can use the Dodge action and slowly advance to a better position while having their OA attacks still available for enemies that wish to conga.

My preference would be a still over-rule use of the conga-line.


Another option might be to introduce a Formation fighting action which grants an AC bonus with the cost of not allowing allies through your space.

Dodge action?

I'm asking because I'm not familiar with that being part of 5th Edition.

Also, is there a way to get more than one OA? I thought you were limited to one reaction in 5th. A similar situation came up during Encounters yesterday in a fight against Gnolls while trying to move up some stairs, so I'm curious.

 

[frogimus]

Dodge action?

I'm asking because I'm not familiar with that being part of 5th Edition.

Also, is there a way to get more than one OA? I thought you were limited to one reaction in 5th. A similar situation came up during Encounters yesterday in a fight against Gnolls while trying to move up some stairs, so I'm curious.

Dodge is on p.17 of "How to Play" (Ghost of Dragonspear Castle). Attack rolls against you have disadvantage. You make Dex saving throws with advantage.

 

[PinkRose]

If the fighter backs up 5', doesn't most of the problems go away?
And dodging helps tremendously.
As Plaguescarred mentioned, I think this is a corner case, and the Rules as Written work just fine.
I can draw up a "perfect" football play as well, that may happen once in a game. But the other team shouldn't be chaning their defense just in case I run that one play a second time, neglecting all the other plays.
What happened was unfortunate for the players. Next time, it will be unfortunate for the monsters.

 

[LostSoul]

Dissociated mechanics can sometimes create strange results. If you don't mind dissociated mechanics, then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Warbringer]

Simple solution might be in rewriting the opportunity attack.

When a creature disengages you may make a free strike at the opponent. If you hit, you may choose to do damage, or elect to keep that creature engaged in combat.