Move - Attack - Move

[Incenjucar]

I think that, rather than outright making it difficult terrain, it should work more like shifting. Call it "careful movement." Careful movement costs an additional 5', but does not provoke OAs (basically giving everyone up to shift 3), while you can still say "screw it" and rush past an enemy at full speed, which results in a penalty (maybe disadvantage or Str mod damage, if we're afraid of rolling dice). Feats can enhance this effect in a variety of ways, like increasing the movement cost even more, dealing damage, and so forth.

 

[Abraxas]

Ah, I see now. Grog's got to go around the PCs or hack her we through. That's cool! On the down side, it also puts you back on the 5' square grid to use precisely.

It does set a good precedent for using it imprecisely, though. Two PCs or Enemies fighting side-by-side can secure a 10' battle line that's basically impassible to anyone they don't want to let through. That's sufficient for bottle-necks and battle-lines (maybe even a little too good in some cases).

It doesn't solve the "spring-attack" and "kiting" problems, though. The Kobold Karousel is still ridiculous. There needs to be a core penalty for walking out of melee reach with your movement.

I have found that it works really well without a grid - the DM just lets the players know whether or not the characters can block movement. Of course, even with a grid I have always ruled that PCs/NPCs can't pass between adjacent opponents even if they occupy spaces on a diagonal. In other words, adjacent creatures always form a line.

I'm not sure the "spring attack", "kiting" and Kobold Karousel issues are really that serious. Readying an attack action deals with the spring attack. If your caught in an area where your opponent shoots and runs you should probably run. And, when I ran the playtest I described the kobold's attack as them swarming over the PCs - in my mind's eye I saw it like the effect in the cartoons when the tasmanian devil mauls someone.

On a grid, a character threatens all the squares surrounding them. Which basically means 15 feet of difficult terrain to either side of them.

So, moving up to an opponent requires no added movement. Moving past an opponent is equal to moving 30 feet.

So, TotM is covered. It takes 30 feet of movement to get past an opponent.

But it doesn't stop the Kobold Karousel and it doesn't stop the wizard (or anyone else) from spring attacking.

 

[mlund]

Readying an attack action deals with the spring attack.

It depends on how you implement readying actions. If the spring-attacking Wizard sees the Orc ready to stab him be might sit back and let loose with Magic Missile or some other ranged attack. Then poor Grog just eats that attack, anything from the melee opponents, and loses his action.

To get around that sort of meta-gaming pitfall you'd need to expand the readied action to include a fail-safe or conditional operation of some sort like, "The next time that Elf attacks I'm going to split him with my ax - or the nearest enemy in reach if I can't get to him." Or you could let the monster or character's the reaction be less precise, "I ready my attack for the next time the Elf takes an action."

If your caught in an area where your opponent shoots and runs you should probably run.

Tactically I think that option is going to be untenable in a lot of above-ground situations. Taken to the extreme any unit in light armor with ranged weapons should destroy any form of heavy infantry that tries to engage simply by falling back 30' and shooting, then watching the heavy infantry have to move-and-act just to get back into melee range, only to have them slip away again next round and continue the slaughter.

That tactical scenario should really only be applicable to horse archers vs. infantry - not infantry vs. infantry.

And, when I ran the playtest I described the kobold's attack as them swarming over the PCs - in my mind's eye I saw it like the effect in the cartoons when the tasmanian devil mauls someone.

I've got a real problem with 30-40 kobolds being able to all make melee against against the same two poor dudes blocking a 10' hallway. The Creature Size rules seem to imply an upper limit to "how many enemies can gang up on it" but the surround statistic seems largely irrelevant with automatic spring-attack. First rank hit, drop back 10', second rank hit seems perfectly viable - especially since I can't find any particular limit for friendly creatures sharing space.

Even fixing that won't stop the Dagger Barrage of Doom (TM), but at least you can charge up to the first rank of Kobolds and keep them from using the old "3 step drop" and throw on you.

In the end I think the rules are going to probably need to reintroduce the Charge action at the very least - probably Withdraw as well, with a penalty (grants advantage?) if you move out of melee threat without using Withdraw.

Leaving Melee: A creature that moves out of melee reach of an enemy grants Advantage to any enemy attacking him before his next turn.

Withdraw: Double your movement. You do not grant Advantage for leaving melee during your turn.

Charge: Double your movement. You may take a Melee Attack during this turn, after which you lose any remaining movement.

- Marty Lund

 

[Lalato]

Another potential option for AoOs/OAs is this... (though potentially too complicated... and gives low initiative creatures a bit of an advantage).

If you move past a creature that has not acted yet in the round, that creature may get an attack. The attack is not free. The creature will still be able to move during it's normal initiative, but it will not get another action.

Anyway... just an idea.

 

[IanB]

The problem I see with this system is it just outright breaks when you have an attacker with over double the movement of the target. This is almost certainly going to be the case with most flying monsters for example.

 

[mlund]

The problem I see with this system is it just outright breaks when you have an attacker with over double the movement of the target. This is almost certainly going to be the case with most flying monsters for example.

Melee vs. Fliers w/ Flyby Attack has always been a tough spot for players in many editions. Including Readied Actions in the rules set and making sure every class has access to a useful Ranged Weapon will probably help things.

It's flying Ranged Attackers you really have to look out for, though. Your Fighter can ready his action to grab hold of the next flying monster to try a flyby and climb on its back to kill it. Those Spine Devils hovering 20 feat overhead dropping poison quills on your head every round are WAY more trouble.

Time for the guy with the Commoner background to bust out the 50' coil of hemp rope and lasso the beast like something from back on the farm.

- Marty Lund

 

[Abraxas]

It depends on how you implement readying actions. If the spring-attacking Wizard sees the Orc ready to stab him be might sit back and let loose with Magic Missile or some other ranged attack. Then poor Grog just eats that attack, anything from the melee opponents, and loses his action.

To get around that sort of meta-gaming pitfall you'd need to expand the readied action to include a fail-safe or conditional operation of some sort like, "The next time that Elf attacks I'm going to split him with my ax - or the nearest enemy in reach if I can't get to him." Or you could let the monster or character's the reaction be less precise, "I ready my attack for the next time the Elf takes an action."

Well, the orc could ready to attack when the elf casts a spell (if he has a weapon that is both melee and ranged) or, as we have always done it, you don't know what (or even if) the orc is readying an action for. You just know he didn't attack yet - so is he delaying or readying?

Tactically I think that option is going to be untenable in a lot of above-ground situations. Taken to the extreme any unit in light armor with ranged weapons should destroy any form of heavy infantry that tries to engage simply by falling back 30' and shooting, then watching the heavy infantry have to move-and-act just to get back into melee range, only to have them slip away again next round and continue the slaughter.

That tactical scenario should really only be applicable to horse archers vs. infantry - not infantry vs. infantry.

I'm not really concerned with mass combat and wouldn't run it that way for a mass combat - but I understand your concern.

I've got a real problem with 30-40 kobolds being able to all make melee against against the same two poor dudes blocking a 10' hallway. The Creature Size rules seem to imply an upper limit to "how many enemies can gang up on it" but the surround statistic seems largely irrelevant with automatic spring-attack. First rank hit, drop back 10', second rank hit seems perfectly viable - especially since I can't find any particular limit for friendly creatures sharing space.

Even fixing that won't stop the Dagger Barrage of Doom (TM), but at least you can charge up to the first rank of Kobolds and keep them from using the old "3 step drop" and throw on you.

Well it would be 20 kobolds in the worst case indoor scenario involving a choke point. If the defenders make a small adjustment to their position only 8 could manage a rotating attack. If the characters are surrounded, well, I don't have a problem with them being in a buttload of hurt as the enemy swarms them. Ultimately I mind less the odd swarming enemies cases than the move-attack-stop or attack-move-stop flow of combat that has been the norm. Anyway, the people I ran the game for with the current rules really liked the way it works right now. YMMVAAD.

In the end I think the rules are going to probably need to reintroduce the Charge action at the very least - probably Withdraw as well, with a penalty (grants advantage?) if you move out of melee threat without using Withdraw.

Leaving Melee: A creature that moves out of melee reach of an enemy grants Advantage to any enemy attacking him before his next turn.

Withdraw: Double your movement. You do not grant Advantage for leaving melee during your turn.

Charge: Double your movement. You may take a Melee Attack during this turn, after which you lose any remaining movement.

- Marty Lund

I think your Leaving Melee option is unnecessarily harsh - why should the character grant advantage to everyone. As for Withdraw and Charge just make them each an action - no need for double movement, other wise you actually end up with triple movement. I also believe the Charge action will be included and we just haven't seen it yet.

 

[Draloric]

How would you handle an opponent withdrawing/retreating from combat? In 3E, using the withdraw action allowed you back away (double move?) without attackers getting an AoO (it was a little more complicated, but that was the basics)

I think I like the idea of granting disadvantage if you try to slip away/past someone in melee.

As it stands right now, I think the playtest documents provide some support for this. I think if you use the Dodge action and move away, that could be considered a reasonable way to withdraw from combat. You might still be targeted, but at least your character is preparing for such an attack (as represented by the +4 bonus to AC and Dex saves).

Otherwise, how about a "Withdraw" action: move up to half your speed (rounded down) away from creatures that threaten you in melee. All melee attacks directed at you have disadvantage. If using a grid, "move away" could be like an inverse "push": you must move into a square that is increasingly distant from the creatures that threaten you.

 

[mlund]

Well, the orc could ready to attack when the elf casts a spell (if he has a weapon that is both melee and ranged) or, as we have always done it, you don't know what (or even if) the orc is readying an action for. You just know he didn't attack yet - so is he delaying or readying?

If the Orc is in melee throwing his weapon will almost never work since he's got Disadvantage. Heck, he should have just spent his action to throw the thing in the first place and saved some initiative.

As to the idea that the players don't know what the Orc is doing when he skips his initiative - every group I've ever played with is too savvy for that. When a monster is waiting for something they make it a point not to come within reach.

Well it would be 20 kobolds in the worst case indoor scenario involving a choke point.

See, I'm not sure how to limit those numbers based on the scenario. I don't see any hard-and-fast rules for how many friendly creatures can fit in a 10' square and shift around in it - let alone spill back into the next 10' square. If the wizard can get between the two front-line warriors to spring-attack the Orcs locked in melee with them then the limit obviously isn't 5' across per character.

Realistically 100 square feet can fit a lot of medium sized people fighting in close ranks, let along small-sized creatures. Upgrade to Goblins with a 30' move and the Merry-Go-Round of attacks can get really silly.

I don't think capacity is going to be a sufficient limiting factor.

If the defenders make a small adjustment to their position only 8 could manage a rotating attack.

I don't follow your math. You'd really have to spell it out for me.

I think your Leaving Melee option is unnecessarily harsh - why should the character grant advantage to everyone.

Dashing in and out of melee is a reckless and frenzied activity. If you are trying to focus on doing something other than that (like shoot at someone) you're multi-tasking too hard and your defense suffers. In terms of economy there has to be some trade-off and I'm opposed to Opportunity Attacks for the sake of logistic simplicity. (Introducing the questions of "how many of the Orcs get OAs?" etc. is a nightmare for TotM).

As for Withdraw and Charge just make them each an action - no need for double movement, other wise you actually end up with triple movement. I also believe the Charge action will be included and we just haven't seen it yet.

I don't follow you. In my example Withdraw and Charge are actions. They double your movement when you declare them so you get the benefit of using your action to move. I didn't want the extra fiddly bits about what part of your movement is "charging" or "evading." I like the simplicity of "Take this Action: Get double-move + benefit."

- Marty Lund

 

[Sunseeker]

I love "move" being defined as any use of your movement value at any time during your turn, and not requiring it to be consecutive.

What makes it FAR too powerful though, is the lack of AoOs.

Run up, stun, run back. Run up, stun, run back. Win.