Move Silently Question

[kreynolds]

It has nothing to do with me not liking it, it has to do with it not being there.

You didn't read the rest of my last post, did you? I told you, I'm done with this discussion. You said your piece. I said mine. Let it go. Why must you keep trying (unsuccessfully) to drag me back into it?

 

[drnuncheon]

You didn't read the rest of my last post, did you? I told you, I'm done with this discussion. You said your piece. I said mine. Let it go. Why must you keep trying (unsuccessfully) to drag me back into it?

Because I'm trying like mad to understand your 'proof', and I don't, and it's bugging me. You seem to be using the very line we're discussing as part of the proof, and you just can't do that - it's a circular definition. I keep coming back to it because I hope you'll point out something that I am missing, rather than saying "I proved it, back there somewhere."

J

 

[kreynolds]

Because I'm trying like mad to understand your 'proof', and I don't, and it's bugging me.

I truly understand what you mean, but I'm pretty much out of patience. It's a shortcoming of mine.

You seem to be using the very line we're discussing as part of the proof, and you just can't do that - it's a circular definition.

Actually, I wasn't, but that's neither here nor there anymore. Anyways, mabye someone else will be able to point you in the right direction and you'll see what I was getting at. If not, oh well. At least I tried.

 

[AGGEMAM]

I side with drnuncheon on this (mostly).

When PHB says 'move your speed' it implies that you move your entire speed, moving half your speed is the same as not moving more than half your speed in an entire combat round, ie you cannot make a 'double walk'.

 

[IceBear]

Well, I don't really see that implication. It just says that you move 1/2 your normal speed. It doesn't differentiate from walking or hustling, though it does specifically mention running.

I have found several references that state that your normal speed is the speed that you move during a move action.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure he's right, and 99% of the time people will be moving silently outside of combat (where they will be moving 15ft per round). If someone wants to do it in combat, then I'll allow them to move 15ft per action (and I'll just wave my wand over the fact that everyone is faster).

It's all good to me

IceBear

 

[The Souljourner]

drnuncheon - I think it's time to throw in the towel. There's a fundamental disagreement on reality here. It's been discussed to death. We're all frustrated that we can't get the other side to understand nor can we get ourselves to understand the other side. So... don't worry about it. It's not the end of the world, and probably won't matter one whit, unless either side DMs for the other

*shrug* No biggie.

-The Souljourner

 

[Nail]

Not that it's liable to make you feel any better, drnuncheon, (and no offence, Krey! Look, a smiley => ) but I'm printing the following response out, and inserting into my "errata and clarifications" file. It explains movement in and out of combat consistently and well. Thanks.

When I see this sentence:

"Characters usually don't walk during combat: They hustle or run."

I do not say to myself "Gee, self, what line on the table should I use to see how fast the characters are moving in combat? I know! I'll use the line that says 'walk', because that's exactly what they are not doing!"

Where do you see the word 'walk' in the following sentence? "A character who moves his or her speed and takes some action, such as attacking or casting a spell, is hustling for about half the round and doing something else the other half."

Answer: You don't. Not unless you're speaking some strange variant English that nobody else does. So why in the name of whatever higher powers you may or may not believe in would you assume that you would therefore look at the 'walk' line of the movement table? I tmakes no sense whatsoever.

Your problem is that you are seeing that 30' in the walk line on Table 9-3 and getting stuck on it. You think "my speed is 30', therefore that must be the line of the table I should use." The fact that it says 'walk', which you usually do not do in combat, gets ignored. The fact that you are only moving for half the round, rather than a full round which is what the table reflects, is also ignored.

Since you usually hustle during combat, look at the hustle line. I know, it's a shocker, looking at the line for the actual type of movement that you are doing, but stick with me. If you hustle for a full round in combat, you go 60' - wow, just what the table says, and it agrees with the description of the double move in the combat section (which, as we have repeatedly agreed, assumes that you ar hustling, which is to say jogging at roughly 6 mph). If you run for a full round in combat, you go 120 feet - again, just what the table says.

So, if you walk for a full round in combat, you go...how far? 30 feet. The fact that you can hustle for 30 feet and then do something else is completely irrelevant to that table.

 

[maddman75]

I think I know the crux of the matter.

drnuncheon has stated that he rarely sees MS in combat, mostly its an out of combat skill in his game. THat is the complete opposite for me -- move silently usually come within combat, or just before it. Its a matter of perspective.

For drn, the overland movement table listing speed is more important, because that's the speeds that people do stuff like move silently with. MS in combat is a special case.

For myself, MS is combat related and associated with actions. With combat, your normal speed - again, emphaisizing that the term 'walk' has NEVER been shown to be included in the Move Silently desciption - is the speed at the top of the character sheet, or listed in the monster stat block. MS says you go half your normal speed. So a human could MS for 15' with no penalty in a MEA, since they could go 30' normally.

ANd yes, I know all about the position with the walk versus hustle, and I really don't think they should be applied. It doesn't matter that you are hustling - what is halved if your normal speed. If the designers intended a human to only MS a square and a half during combat, they would have indicated quartering the speed, not halving it.

Ultimately, it boils down to "What did the designers mean when they referred to your Normal speed in the MS description." I and Kreynolds feel this means the speed on your character sheet. drnuncheon and others feel this means the speed derived by looking at the overland movement table.

 

[kreynolds]

(and no offence, Krey! Look, a smiley => )

No offense taken, Nail. I'm perfectly comfortable with my stance, so it's all good.

 

[drnuncheon]

Ultimately, it boils down to "What did the designers mean when they referred to your Normal speed in the MS description." I and Kreynolds feel this means the speed on your character sheet. drnuncheon and others feel this means the speed derived by looking at the overland movement table.

Actually, I'll note that I think it's the speed on your character sheet, too - because you travel that many feet in a full round of movement at walking speed (see line one, table 9-3).

Since the character sheet and the monster description both say '30 feet' (or whatever) and don't include a 'per X time period', there's really no way to say whether they mean it to be specifically 'walking speed' or 'hustle speed'. I choose to interpret it as 'walking speed' because to me walking seems more normal than jogging, and because hustling and running are both determined based on multiples of it.

Basically, I'm saying "the reason you move 30 feet in a move action is because you are hustling (twice your walking speed) for half a round (half the distance covered)." 30 (walk speed) * 2 (hustling) * 1/2 (half a round) = 30.

The fact that this so conveniently works out to be the same as the base speed is great, and it lets you use the same figure for both walking out of combat and half-hustling in combat, but it also causes the confusion we saw in this discussion.

J