Moving Silently w. a Spike Chain

[Forrester]

It might be getting into too much detail, but you could house-rule it to give -2 to Move Silently.

Hell, by Official 3E Rules, a guy in Full Plate carrying a Tower Shield doesn't hide any better than a Great Gold Wyrm. A strong kobold carrying two or three Halberds doesn't get a penalty to his Hide check. And so on, and so forth. Pretty silly.

And by 3E rules, you don't get an Official Penalty to Move Silently if you're carrying a bucket of chain links. Or twelve bags of gold.

But you know what -- there's a fix for that. It's called a "circumstance penalty". And I applaud you if you decide to give them out to folks carrying clinky things, whether it's big bags of gold or big lengths of chain.

Lord knows they couldn't spell out every single situation where a circumstance penalty should be granted. That's the DM's job. I wouldn't even call it a "Rule 0".

 

[kreynolds]

But you know what -- there's a fix for that. It's called a "circumstance penalty". And I applaud you if you decide to give them out to folks carrying clinky things, whether it's big bags of gold or big lengths of chain.

Lord knows they couldn't spell out every single situation where a circumstance penalty should be granted. That's the DM's job. I wouldn't even call it a "Rule 0".

And how ticked off would you get when a PC wore minimal gear, amounting to a weapon and a jumpsuit, and then suggested they should get a +10 circumstance bonus to all Dex related skills, which wouldn't be out of the question at all? Doesn't quite work in reverse either.

 

[Forrester]

+10 to dex checks? Um . . . yeah. Very realistic.

There is no "Does it work in reverse?" problem. The base saves, checks, etc. assume a "light load" or better (read: essentially unencumbered) individual. In other words, the guy with the jumpsuit and the weapon. For simplicity's sake, they don't give highly detailed Armor Check and Move Silently and Hide and Tumble, etc., penalties for every piece of gear Jumpsuit Boy could put on, because it'd just get too compliated.

Which leads to the situation where a Tower Shield gives -10 to both Tumble checks (makes sense) and Hide checks (doesn't make sense). And bags of coin don't "officially" affect Move Silently checks. And carry around big lengths of chain don't officially affect Move Silently checks.

Nevertheless, in many situations it makes sense for a DM to hand out circumstance penalties, if he so wishes, to fill in these holes. He doesn't have to let the uber-buff Orc with a 22 strength carry something that's big and bulky and unwieldly that weighs "only" 200lbs, just because the PHB says so. He doesn't have to let the guy carrying 100' of loose chain move as silently as his jumpsuited buddy. And so on. Circumstance penalties, baby. They're a DM's best friend . . . just like the DMG says

 

[Shard O'Glase]

You know I've agreed with virtually everthing forrester has posted since reading and agreeing with his elf diatribe. And here is no exception. Which sucks because I play a spiked chain wielding rogue.

 

[kreynolds]

[BThere is no "Does it work in reverse?" problem. [/B]

Bet me. If you're gonna start spontaneously applying Move Silently penalties because someone is carrying a spiked chain, or a bag of gold, or a ring of keys, then you better start spontaneously applying Move Silently bonuses to someone that is carrying nothing.

Weight loads have nothing to do with the "noisy spiked chain move silently penalty" that you would apply. You want to apply the penalty because the chain is noisy. That implies that certain equipment makes more noise than other equipment. What equipment is the loudest? What equipment makes the least amount of noise? You need to figure that out before you just start dolling out penalties.

Game balance implies that for every positive, there is a negative. So, if carrying equipment hampers your ability to be silent, then carrying none wouldn't just bring your penalties down to 0, as it is very difficult to traverse a dungeon without the proper equipment. So, actually taking up the challenge to traverse through a dungeon with nothing but your dagger, though this may be suicidal and plain stupid, should grant you a bonus. Aside from the shuffling of your feet, there is nothing on your person that would cause any noise.

 

[Bonedagger]

As long as you maintain tension on the chain then the links won't make any additional noise by banging together. It wouldn't really be a stealthy weapon to use (unless you slip it over their neck and strangle them with it), but moving with it would not be a problem.

I agree.

You might need to fold the chain but as long as it is being held stretched it will probably make less sound than your breathing.

And not to forget. When it is being held stretched it contains a lot of potential energy for a quick swing.

 

[LGodamus]

when one thinks of a stealthy assassin from real history, most people think of ninja,correct? well, about one third of all weapons developed by shinobi have some sort of spiked or weighted chain,and I assure you they can all be carried quite stealthily, actually moreso than swords or other bladed weapons.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

There is no "Does it work in reverse?" problem. The base saves, checks, etc. assume a "light load" or better (read: essentially unencumbered) individual. In other words, the guy with the jumpsuit and the weapon. For simplicity's sake, they don't give highly detailed Armor Check and Move Silently and Hide and Tumble, etc., penalties for every piece of gear Jumpsuit Boy could put on, because it'd just get too compliated.

There is a reverse problem in that a DM who wants to nickel and dime a PC has to be fair and either give bonuses or/and spell out what are problem items.

The rules say that a character wearing silk pajamas and baby bottom soft slippers made from fetal calf skin gets the exact same ACP/encumbrance penalty for moving silently as the 17 Str adventurer wearing sturdy mountain boots & MW studded leather, carrying a bastard sword & longsword, and 300 gp of coin distributed into 3 belt pouches: zero.

Clearly the rules abstract out a lot. IMHO it is against the spirit of the rules to second guess the characters at the level of detail of different weapons they are carrying. If necessary, I am sure a Rogue would wrap the chain in silk. You don't have to quiz the player about what the character would be able to figure out on their own.

Obviously the DM can throw in lots of circumstance penalties if he wants. But I do not think it will make the game more fun.

One of the best pieces of advice in the DMG is the +/-2 rule. It basically said if a circumstance bonus was appropriate bump it up or down by 2. A 10% shift is pretty significant. What this means is the DM should hassle over the little stuff. If the rules do not spell it out already only tack on big effects to the roll.

IMHO the noice from a chain would be a small effect, zero if handled by someone skilled in stealth. YMMV.

 

[Artoomis]

I was sure I posted a note yesterday. Ah, well.

Basically, it is fine, and well within the rules, to apply a circumstance penalty of -2 (the DM's friend) for carrying a spiked chain that has not been "silenced" using some sort of small effort and expense.

This is true for carrying excessive equipment, too - pots and pans tend to clank when you walk. A penalty of even greater than -2 might be in order, though perhaps it's not worth worrying about, especially as rules already exist for armor check penalties for being excessively loaded down with "stuff."

On the other hand, rogues, who live and die by moving silently, would routinely take great pains to muffle anything on them that makes noise, and so I might not impose the penalty on them, except for equipment recently found that hasn't been "muffled" yet.

Back when I was "camping" with the US Army, it was routine for Rangers and other sneaky types to jump up and down to find out what clanked on them, and then silence it. Other, less sneaky types, like tankers and artillerymen, would never do such a thing, and would be laughed at if they did.

 

[Forrester]

It's just that I remember the Spiked Chain being both *thick* AND 10' in length. Perhaps I'm incorrect (I don't have the PHB in front of me). But if it is, I think it's going to be tough to carry silently, unless it's packed away in silk or cotton.