M's Disjunction from a scroll

[Artoomis]

What happen when a M's Disjunction is used from a scroll against an artifact if the user has no magical powers (a rogue using Use Maguic Device, for example)? Is this the same or different if the reader of the scroll has magical powers that can be lost with M's Disjunction?

I see the choices as:

1. Reader is safe because he has no powers to lose.
2. Original scriber of the scroll is at risk when the spell is used (this does not seem right - but could it be?)

I thought this to be an interesting question - maybe the answer is obvious, though, and I just don't see it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The original scriber of the scroll is not at risk. He is no longer the caster. The rogue would be the caster and would lose all spellcasting abilities. If he has none, fine, but he could never gain them without help from a deity.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

The original scriber of the scroll is not at risk. He is no longer the caster. The rogue would be the caster and would lose all spellcasting abilities. If he has none, fine, but he could never gain them without help from a deity.

Not only that ... but M's Disjunction specifically says that it normally draws attention from a high powered source - the one who made the artificat. The rogue might need help from another deity to avoid the wrath of the deity who's artifact he just destroyed!

As far as anyone at risk - I would say that as long as the rogue passes the UMD check, nobody is at risk except maybe the rogue's future abilities if any. Basically, what Infiniti said.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It actually doesn't specify the maker of the artifact, just a powerful being with some interest in or connection to it. Given the level of the disjunction, there's even a reasonable chance that the caster (even the rogue in this example) is more powerful than that being. But, that doesn't make it a good thing.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Oh, yeah. Sorry, mental oversight. I didn't type what I meant.

Of course, if a deity is attached to a certain artifact that was made by a beloved cleric ... I might rather have the maker of the artifact after me rather than the deity!

 

[Infiniti2000]

Well, the deity who created the artifact is the most obvious choice for the powerful being. Those avatar stat blocks will make disjunction a generally poor choice for spell selection.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think it could be argued whether UMD could possibly count as spellcasting ability, but personally I would not treat it as such, so I think that the Rogue loses nothing (unless he has spellcasting abilities from a second class).

About attracting the enmity of a deity, there is nothing worse for a Rogue compared to anyone else: the enmity is because of destroying the artifact, not about how you accomplished that.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think it could be argued whether UMD could possibly count as spellcasting ability, but personally I would not treat it as such, so I think that the Rogue loses nothing (unless he has spellcasting abilities from a second class).

I would take the opposite stance.

Can you cast a spell with UMD? Yes.

Well, you cannot anymore.

It seems only fair.

 

[Li Shenron]

Can you cast a spell with UMD? Yes.

The point is that IMO using a magic item is not spellcasting. I understand that certain magic items allow you cast a spell, but at least you'd have to ban only using scrolls/wands/staves, definitely not all other uses of UMD. But still I wouldn't ban it, for me UMD is still the ability the "hack" magic items, not a spellcasting ability.

 

[KarinsDad]

The point is that IMO using a magic item is not spellcasting. I understand that certain magic items allow you cast a spell, but at least you'd have to ban only using scrolls/wands/staves, definitely not all other uses of UMD. But still I wouldn't ban it, for me UMD is still the ability the "hack" magic items, not a spellcasting ability.

I agree that UMD should only no longer be usable to cast spells via scrolls, wands, staves, etc. In other words, any activation using the Spell Completion or Spell Trigger methods since those are casting spells and only usable by characters with spell casting capabilties (in this case, UMD).

You could still use UMD to activate other magical items via Command Word or Use Activated.

"Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities."

UMD is a spellcasting ability when used for spell completion or spell trigger. With it, you can cast spells.

Course, if you do not drop this for UMD, you should also not drop spell completion or spell trigger for spell casters who destroy an artifact and miss the will save. Good for the goose, good for the gander.