Mules! -- Huh! -- What are they good for?

[Driddle]

To make mules more interesting, add the templates of half-dragon swarm.
And then give a few levels of bard to top it off.

 

[Ace]

I would much, much rather play in a game where mules were normally used for supply trains than a game with many Handy Haversacks.

RC

I can't blame you. My True 20 game is like that.

My D&D 3x game is higher magic though -- Low level (3-5) NPC's might use mules but higher level sorts travel light -- sustainer slivers (a ring of sustenance variant that is slot-less) handy haversacks, magic porta shelters and the like abound--

Elite NPC's typically teleport in close to the destination.

 

[Warren Okuma]

I would find the lack of a magic item market to be far more jarring to my sense of disbelief than the existence of magic items themselves.

I agree.

If there are things and people, there is a market for the things. it may not be a big market and it might be an expensive market but it exists as long as the sophonts have human-type motivations. Note that I mean "market" to mean "mechanism for supplying materials" rather than "a location where wares are bought and sold." I run a vanilla, magic-items-by-the-DMG game and I don't have Wal-Mage stores. I do, however, have various agents who will put you in touch with someone who is trying to sell the thing you want or is capable of making the thing you want, with the odds skewed towards "make" over "buy."

I use guild mages and churches as a source of dealers for a small but random pick. You know used magic items.

Even when my party has the weight of the King thrown behind them to help them acquire what they need, they still spend weeks and months awaiting the items' completion. Sometimes they have to quest to find the rare magical components for their specialty items, furthering the game.

Same here.

I'm curious where this stereotype comes from. The only "doddering mages" I know from pop literature is Gandalf, Fizban, Miracle Max and Dumbeldorf. None of which are really fools, though they occasionally cultivate that image.

No clue what Thunderfoot's talking about. Must be a prestige class I haven't heard of.

IMO the high level crafter wizard is the one who knows he's soon to die (at least, likely to die before having a chance to get that "extended life" epic feat) and is burning his XPs to leave a legacy (and possibly buy his way into heaven). The mid-level crafters are either fulfilling obligations to their liege/guild (in line with medieval european tradition) and the low-level crafters have simply decided that the occasional scroll or potion provides enough cash to justify the effort (1 XP = 12.5gp) or brings a much safer (and therefore boring and uninteresting) lifestyle.

Let's face it, a 1st level character will earn about 75XP from a CR1 encounter which translates into 937gp worth of magic item crafting profit. If they have that CR1 encounter once a year (say going to/from a fair or just when the bull escapes from the pasture), they can plan on that 937gp as their annual income. Compare that to Profession, where you earn your skill check x 5sp /week and you have the equivalent of a Profession skill total of 26 (+10 on the die). Why would any non-adrenaline junkie NOT become an item-making mage if they had the choice?

That's what I did, and recruited other people to enchant as well.

Clerics should be motivated at various times to buckle down and craft items to ensure the survival or spread of the faith. Plus, that 937gp/year is an excellent way to fund the construction of a church.

Or to promote the faith (if god of commerce, money, enchanting), or to equip it's champion or allies (for a price), or gain favor from the nobility.

Plateauing is a problem for those who don't continue to venture farther afield and go for more dangerous game. However, that plateau will be based on the types of game each hunter goes for, e.g. rabbit hunters rarely get past 2nd, wolf hunters can get to 6th, boar hunters make it to 10th and bear hunters to 12th. Same goes for magical craftsmen; are they content to be at the bottom of the magical strata (which is far, far above the peasants or even most craftsmen) or do they swim in the same waters as ambitious nobles, clerics working to further God's Plan, and merchant princes?

Rabbit hunters make potions, wolf hunters make wands, boar hunters make general stuff, and bear hunters make top of the line gear. Don't plateau, just before that use the XP's to enchant. Higher level enchanters get to be wealthy. They get to be rich. They get to be filthy rich. That's why they exist. It's easy (go on a hunt, people hunt for fun) and then make another fortune. Pretty cruise life.

 

[Warren Okuma]

Yes, but what does that have to do with travelling through wilderness. Hunting expeditions usually are limited in time and have a place of return for re-supply.

Um, no. A friend of mine's cousin, just takes a fire making tool, a machete, a canteen, and a rifle in the woods of Georgia and disappears for months. He calls it a vacation. Yeah, he explores new places and travels a lot he can be found in Texas to Georgia to Maine. Then again, he is one of the last Georgian wild men and a survivalist.

When treking into the unknown with no known resupply posts and no known "safe harbors" it makes sence to prepare for anything. As hard as is it for modern folks to understand this, I point to the Arctic, Antarctic and mountian expeditions of the 19th and early 20th c.; these folks took boatloads of crap (sometimes literally boatloads) because they didn't know where theor next meal was coming from. Of course this is hyperbole, but then so are most of the examples being offered in defence, I am sure the truth lies in the middle somewhere.

Spoken like a low level character. If you are talking about a high level character, you just haven't really read your spells. If you are a high level character, just teleport home and get what you need. Mules are a low level thing. Mules slow you down because you are casting fly or the like.
Especially when you "have two days to stop the ritual from summoning that demon lord to this plane." Mules don't cut it. I bet you don't run very harsh time trials.

Nothing, and if it works you, that's cool.

It does very well. I like being filthy rich. Then you hunt or fight a bandit or role play and then enchant again with the "extra XP." I bet people will notice and copy that and decide become rich to.

I can see where you are going with this, however, I don't have the typical hamlet seperated by miles of space in the middle of nowhere with the big flashing neon sign that says, "Monsters, eat here!" I run my world a little closer to 'real' in that when people build, they do so in groups, large ones, for protection.

I have walled hamlets with watchtowers and the survivors start to get higher and higher levels. There is usually a human population pressure to expand (except after wars and plagues), as it was historically.
I call monster incursions "population overflows." It happens in real life you know, and happens quite often. This happens for many reasons, poor weather (they move to better hunting grounds) or good weather (population boom) and they begin migrations. My monsters are not imbred and incursions are common and usually for the same land the humans and demi-humans want. The adventurers are first of many and only become Legendary after level 11 ish (as per Legend Lore, read the spell), otherwise they are just one of the unwashed masses. My monsters are common-ish and not imbred. I like to have a healthy breeding pool in my game. How about you?

Cities are actually a central metropolis surrounded by tens of farming communities within spitting distance of each other. (Medieval Europe) Sure the odd person build away from everyone elese, and when the monster eat them there is noone left to scream. That's where those ruins come from in the middle of nowhere.

In my world ruins are cities that failed to defend itself against population overflows or other reasons. Odd persons making ruins? Sometimes.

BTW, at least you are being civil about this, I appreciate it, if nothing else we can come to a point to agree to disagree. I like spirited debate, however some people are not so lucky. Thanks.

Your welcome, and thank you. I like civil spirited debate as well.