multi-classed spellcasters

[Particle_Man]

I thought that if a 10th level fighter/10th level wizard takes 1 more level of wizard, he can advance as a wizard (gaining more spells per day, etc.) but doesn't get the wizard bab or save progression, but rather the "epic" progression. I am in dispute with someone who thinks that once you hit epic levels, you no longer gain more spells per day. I thought that limit was to 20 class levels, not 20 character levels. Which of us is right?

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/EpicLevelBasics.rtf

For the relevant info.

 

[Malin Genie]

You're both right, in a way. Once you hit Epic levels in terms of your total character level, you no longer gain BAB and saves as per the standard progression, but rather by the Epic Progression. On the other hand, when advancing in a class, you gain class abilities (other than BAB and saves) as per the normal class progression until you hit Epic levels in that class.

So advancing from Wiz20 to Wiz21 does not gain you any additional spells per day, but instead advances you along the Epic Wizard progression. On the other hand, advancing from Wiz10 to Wiz11, even if your total character level is 21, grants you the normal increase in both spells/day and caster level, the normal increase in your familiar's abilities, etc.

Note that this can lead to odd situations, where a character who is a Ftr20 then takes 10 levels of Wizard has BAB +25/+20/+15/+10, but a Ftr10/Wiz10 who then takes another 10 levels of Ftr only has BAB +20/+15/+10.

 

[Pax]

Malin's dead-center on this one. 100% correct.

The issue with BAB (which has parallels in base saves, too) is one reason why, if I ever run an actual epic campaign (as opposed to an arena), I'll always use "best case" calculations on each of BAB, saves, and so on - each element considered seperately.

I just think a Fighter(20)/Wizard(20) should always have the same BAB and base saves, regardless of which class he took levels in when and in which order (which would be, by the RAW, anywhere from +20 to +30, for BAB).

Sadly, the rules don't agree with me. :'(

 

[Particle_Man]

Thanks for backing me up, dudes!

Re: BAB and Saves, I think I would be meaner than you, but nicer than Wotc. I would let the players calculate their BAB and Saves as if they had taken their class levels in whatever order they wished to name (except for the first character level). Thus, they could get a good BAB and likely Fort save, OR they could sacrifice BAB for a class that gave good reflex or will saves. (Thus I would not let them take the "best" BAB, and THEN the "best" Will save, if those would require different pre-epic class orderings). That way they would not overshadow single-classed epic level characters.

 

[Particle_Man]

The horror! The horror!

My friend showed me p. 150 of Complete Warrior:

"For spellcasters, your caster level continues to increase ... However, your spells per day don't increase after character level 20th." *character* level...I would never have believed it, but there it was, staring balefully up at me from the printed page.

Complete Divine talks about no increases beyond "Caster level 20th", (page 89) but can I trust the cut and paste frenzy that is Complete Divine?

Have I misinterpreted things that badly? Was there a change of heart at Wotc? Has there been an errata on Complete Warrior that changes it back to class levels?

Obviously, I think that "class level" works better, but I fear that this is no longer the official word. I am confused!

 

[Pax]

My friend showed me p. 150 of Complete Warrior:

Using their own "Primary Source" rule, however, thisis trumped by the epic Level Handbook, which indicates no such thing. And after all, the ELH is clearly the "primary source" with regards to Epic Characters.

 

[Li Shenron]

My friend showed me p. 150 of Complete Warrior:

"For spellcasters, your caster level continues to increase ... However, your spells per day don't increase after character level 20th." *character* level...I would never have believed it, but there it was, staring balefully up at me from the printed page.

If that was true, 20th level Fighter (for example) who starts now taking level of a spellcasting class would basically never cast spells, which is of course absurd. It must have been a typo, it's probably easy to overlook such an error if you don't have a very careful editor.

 

[Agamemnon]

And given the things one hears from the editing of Complete Divine, I think we can safely exclude the possibility of WotC having a very careful editor in their employ.

 

[Malin Genie]

Looking at p150 of the Complete Warrior it seems clear to me from the context (talking about characters with a spellcasting Prestige Class that adds to the caster level of a base class) that the "character level" in that paragraph should instead read "caster level".

I suspect that the idea was to make clear that the restriction did not merely apply past class level 20 to prevent a Wiz10/Lor10 claiming to gain new spells by advancing to Wiz11/Lor10 because 'she hasn't got past class level 20'. However, instead of replacing 'class level' with '(total) caster level', the writer instead mistakenly entered 'character level' (and, suprise, surprise, it was not caught in editing.)

 

[sledged]

Looking at p150 of the Complete Warrior it seems clear to me from the context (talking about characters with a spellcasting Prestige Class that adds to the caster level of a base class) that the "character level" in that paragraph should instead read "caster level".

Actually it should say "spell progression level" because there are ways to increase your caster level without increasing your spell progression. For instance, a Druid 11/Fighter 4/Heirophant 5 with the Practiced Spellcaster feat has a caster level of 20, but only has the spell selection and capacity of an 11th level druid.