Multi-classing: as good as it seems?

[smbakeresq]

It seems to me your entire answer is snark with some failed attempt at wit. What did you add? Haha oh well, internet.

I added you, through exposure. Your anger and sudden defense proves I am right.

 

[smbakeresq]

It seems to me your entire answer is snark with some failed attempt at wit. What did you add? Haha oh well, internet.

Next I will add your weak defense, that you “suddenly” had hexblade ideas right after it came out. You will have explain your “inspiration” as a defense, then turn to “whataboutism.”

Go ahead, “internets.”

 

[Warpiglet]

Next I will add your weak defense, that you “suddenly” had hexblade ideas right after it came out. You will have explain your “inspiration” as a defense, then turn to “whataboutism.”

Go ahead, “internets.”

i was describing a fun character. There is a nice trail of collaboration on the boards here documenting it.

as to defense, what is being defended? I hope your group enjoys rigidity

 

[Blue]

I feel @Saelorn is somewhat understanding the importance of the 2-4 features, and you're somewhat overstating it. Level 2-4 features are quite useful, but so are plenty of level 1 features! Better armor, Con save proficiency for a caster, fighting style, more cantrips and low level spells known are all good things to have.

And really, even in the worst case the delta between an optimized character and an unoptimized character at level 4 just isn't that large. The real pain point for a multiclass character is usually 5th-8th, when you're down a feat/ASI and missing the Extra Attack/3rd level spell boost. And even that can be mitigated if you're doing a part rogue build or cantrip build.

Well, both Saelorn and I gave XP to your post, so you probably hit a reasonable middle ground.

It comes down to opportunity cost. To get the 2nd-4th level benefits, you are giving up the opportunity to take 1st level in other classes.

Some classes give more than others at 1st. Depending what you are looking for, clerics (with domains and proficiencies even if nto your 1st class), fighters (with a fighting style and second wind), warlock (patrons, especially hexblade), and rogue (expertise) especially stand out. So if you have a specific build that is looking to combine multiple 1st level features you can work out something quite nice.

The flip side is the builds that don't need as many of the 1st level cherry-picks, and are closer in execution to the existing classes. For those, the existing classes are generally good and sometimes great at giving out strong supporting features in levels 2-4. For those builds, the supporting features outweigh the a la carte approach where you have more flexibility but only of those options that appear at level 1 and are from classes that are ability score compatible to some degree.

 

[smbakeresq]

If I'm picking a single classed character, but it's against the rules to pick any full caster - well, that right there shows that fully 6 of the 12 classes (the full casters, including warlock) can't be done better with multiclassing.

Okay, so let me pick among the remaining classes. Let's go simple: A front line melee tank/striker/support - the Oath of Ancients Paladin. Features I'm looking at:

High survivability in terms of high AC and high HPs, with high saves and resistance to all magic damage coming in at character level 6 and 7 so available for most of their adventuring career. Without using concentration.
Good melee damage. Extra attack (though BB/GWB would be fine) plus some other melee boosters (divine smite, improved divine smite, some spells to either smite or improve weapons, feats like polearm mastery)
And support - off healing including poison and disease. Gives out the auras of +CHR to saves and resistance to magic in a radius - while I'm not looking for these to match, I am looking for something of similar power without concentration like Lore Bard's cutting words. Limited spell list (only half caster) but with plenty of good spells - bless, prot good/evil, shield of faith, find steed, aura of vitality (great out-of-combat healing), find greater steed and holy weapon from XGtE.

This should be easy. Pal/sorc is a very commonly talked about multiclass, and even if you want something different CHR makes bard and warlock both easy to take. Cherry-picking hexblade from Warlock 1 will help with STR needs, though you still need a 13 for multiclassing paladin and a 15 if you want the best heavy armors. And it would limit weapon choices unless you go up to 3 for pact of the blade.

Paladin is fairly MAD, so if you keep it as part of the build try not to fall too far behind in ASIs, and hopefully we don't need another ability besides STR and CHR at 13 for multiclassing, since that has an opportunity cost as well. If you don't have any paladin ignore this paragraph.

Correct. Paladins losing alignment restrictions somehow moved into Paladins losing “devotion to their cause, in fact any cause except builds” free-for all.

It’s not the players fault, it’s the DM fault for allowing it. Build a theme at least, and then start to build a character concept. You don’t start with “this would be cool to do with the multi-class rules so how does it fit.”

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I feel [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] is somewhat understating the importance of the 2-4 features, and you're somewhat overstating it. Level 2-4 features are quite useful, but so are plenty of level 1 features! Better armor, Con save proficiency for a caster, fighting style, more cantrips and low level spells known are all good things to have.

That's mostly what I was getting at, yeah. The feature you get from your subclass at level 3, and even an ability score increase or feat, is not significantly more powerful than better armor proficiencies or a fighting style. Some feats are extremely comparable to what you could get from multi-classing for one level, anyway. Compare the durability added by the barbarian's bear totem (relative to just physical resistance), to the additional healing of multi-classing to cleric, or even just second wind; they're all roughly in the same ballpark.

Whether you're a level 4 barbarian, a level 4 cleric, or a level 2/2 barbarian/cleric, you aren't expending your class resources most of the time. Most of the time, you're just making an attack at +5 or +6, for damage which has not changed more than a point since you were level 1. Meanwhile, your HP total has increased by about 250%. Even if you're bad at optimization, and make terrible choices about where to multi-class, your level 4 character is still going to be just fine.

 

[Quartz]

The only multi-class that I personally find annoying is the 2 level dip into warlock so you recharge spells after a short rest.

You and your players might find this thread and specifically this post by [MENTION=6802655]mpwylie[/MENTION] of interest.

Basically, on a Short Rest spellcasters recover one casting spell slot of each level up to their Proficiency Bonus minus 1 (full) or minus 2 (partial), recover one of each slot on a Long Rest, and have fewer casting slots. Arcane Recovery et al are deprecated.

 

[cbwjm]

Next I will add your weak defense, that you “suddenly” had hexblade ideas right after it came out. You will have explain your “inspiration” as a defense, then turn to “whataboutism.”

Go ahead, “internets.”

Well it's not like they could have had ideas before hexblade came out...

 

[Ancalagon]

I added you, through exposure. Your anger and sudden defense proves I am right.

[MENTION=6689161]Warpiglet[/MENTION] had an *excellent* character concept and we've been discussing how to realize it for a week now. And by concept, I don't mean a "build", I mean an origin, a role-playing idea.

In a few weeks I will start into a pbp campaign that starts at level 8. I've already created a "gish" for that campaign. And even though my initial build is mechanically superior (and the character fits better in the campaign), I am *sorely* tempted to replace it with my take on Warpiglet's character concept. It's just that good (the concept - my build isn't great, but it *fits* warpiglet's concept nicely).

So your notion that Warpiglet is some grubbing min-maxer is ill-informed, at best. I think you should perhaps apologize.

 

[smbakeresq]

[MENTION=6689161]Warpiglet[/MENTION] had an *excellent* character concept and we've been discussing how to realize it for a week now. And by concept, I don't mean a "build", I mean an origin, a role-playing idea.

In a few weeks I will start into a pbp campaign that starts at level 8. I've already created a "gish" for that campaign. And even though my initial build is mechanically superior (and the character fits better in the campaign), I am *sorely* tempted to replace it with my take on Warpiglet's character concept. It's just that good.

So your notion that Warpiglet is some grubbing min-maxer is ill-informed, at best. I think you should apologize.

No, it isn’t. I read the thread, the concept was carefully chosen and enunciated. It was always about what’s best within the rules construct, carefully fitted within a RP shell. I was in early on the thread.

It ok, I just object to calling it something other than what it really is.