D&D 5E (2014) Multiclassing discussion

[Mistwell]

What about this as a ham-fisted, old-school fix to all possible multiclassing abuses:

If you multiclass, you may only ever have 2 classes, and niether class may never be more than 1 level behind the other.

(I will now duck for cover)

I like it

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I like it

Well, though it wasn't limited to 2 classes, there was the 3E rule on preferred classes where you suffered XP penalties if your class levels got to far out of balance and they weren't your preferred class ... except I think everyone just ignored that rule.

 

[Obryn]

or, what seems to be your most fervent suggestion,
C.) Work with his DM to rebuild his character, either instantly or incrementally, and replace some or all mechanics of the rogue class with the cleric class. This will have the effect of some of the abilities and proficiencies he's gained as a rogue disappearing, but you need not worry about that since your character is more than his character sheet. This will also have the effect of not cursing the character to ineffectiveness while he's a doing his cleric-things with an abysmally low wisdom score.

No, that's not really what I'm saying at all. Sorry for not being clearer about my assumptions, here.

I'm not saying he should use the rogue mechanics and call it a cleric or whatever. I'm saying you should work with whatever mechanical options are legally available to a character in the system - and cooperating with the DM to bend the rules if necessary - and allow a complete rebuild from level 1 to make the new mechanical concept work.

If that involves some attribute switches plus 3e-style multiclassing, fine*. If it involves retroactively changing to a (in 4e parlance) a Hybrid character, so be it. Feat or skill swaps? No problem. If you want to rebuild from scratch as a Level 12 (or whatever your level is) Cleric and keep knowledge in Streetwise or whatever, in deference to your background, great!

I'm not personally suggesting a reskin of the Rogue because that wouldn't mechanically work like a Cleric in any way. And just swapping mechanics around without foundation in the game's rules is kind of lame.

I am just suggesting that the Rogue should be able to swap his attributes around and buy up to a decent Wisdom so he's less great at Rogue-ing and much better at Cleric-ing, however. If the player wants to do that. If it's somehow core to their concept that they be a crappy cleric, fine - go to town - but it shouldn't be necessary to make a mechanically poor character in order to "roleplay" it.


* I share reservations with [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] about buffet-style multiclassing, and don't like how it dilutes what should be archetypes down to a tepid and mushy point-buy system, but if the option is there, it'll work.

 

[bogmad]

No, that's not really what I'm saying at all. Sorry for not being clearer about my assumptions, here.


I am just suggesting that the Rogue should be able to swap his attributes around and buy up to a decent Wisdom so he's less great at Rogue-ing and much better at Cleric-ing, however. If the player wants to do that. If it's somehow core to their concept that they be a crappy cleric, fine - go to town - but it shouldn't be necessary to make a mechanically poor character in order to "roleplay" it.


* I share reservations with @pemerton about buffet-style multiclassing, and don't like how it dilutes what should be archetypes down to a tepid and mushy point-buy system, but if the option is there, it'll work.

I'm not totally agreed that it makes a mechanically poor character. Multi-classing by design should make you less optimal at the class you give up to take the multiclass, but you have a broader skill set. You're forgoing being really good at the one class to be able to react to things in more ways than you could before with the only one class.

A character with a high dex score who's good at being a rogue and not so great at being a cleric should have the same mechanical effectiveness as a cleric/rogue who's not quite as good at being a rogue (because of his lower scores) but adequate at both.

Now that is hard to quantify, but I actually think it could be done well enough for my tastes without too much more work.

I got started playing the game with just my brother as the DM, so building a multiclass character to fill in a lot of necessary roles was actually required to make the game play well enough. Perhaps that's why I'm not as worried about diluting the archetypes.

 

[Obryn]

I'm not totally agreed that it makes a mechanically poor character. Multi-classing by design should make you less optimal at the class you give up to take the multiclass, but you have a broader skill set. You're forgoing being really good at the one class to be able to react to things in more ways than you could before with the only one class.

A character with a high dex score who's good at being a rogue and not so great at being a cleric should have the same mechanical effectiveness as a cleric/rogue who's not quite as good at being a rogue (because of his lower scores) but adequate at both.

I don't think we're disagreeing here. If you want to retain both skill-sets you will be less good at both jobs. However, if you want to rebuild so you're just a Cleric, you're going to be a Cleric of your level.

I'm simply arguing that there's no need to be awful at your new class. If your converted Rogue has an 8 wisdom, there's no need to (1) keep that 8 wisdom forever, or (2) only take cleric levels one at a time. In answer to (1) you can change your stats around. In answer to (2) you can lose some Rogue levels and trade - even all of them.

 

[pemerton]

The last several pages of this thread have kept going back to one example, that of the low wisdom rogue who finds religion, and not only becomes religious, but also decides to change careers to become a cleric.

Obryn's assertion (and yours; someone please correct me if I'm wrong) is that you're fine with him never being able to do this with RAW.

I don't think that was [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION]'s assertion. It's not mine.

My main assertion is that 3E style multiclassing is not the only way to do this, and perhaps not the best. And that rebuilding is another way to do it. And that rebuilding should be part of the RAW.

My secondary assertion is that, if balancing 3E-style multi-classing means that the low-WIS rogue/cleric is not viable or perhaps not even rules-legal, that's not an objection to the otherwise balanced multi-classing rules, because there are other ways of handling that career-change concept (such as rebuilding).

On the finer points of detail, Obryn has covered it all in the handful of posts above this one.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

That's a solid point, if we're rolling for stats, but not so much if we're using point-buy. Since dice rolling is the default in Next, it does get kind of hairy.

Dice rolling is default in Basic 5e. I'm hoping (and mostly expecting) point buy to be default in standard.

 

[MoonSong]

I am just suggesting that the Rogue should be able to swap his attributes around and buy up to a decent Wisdom so he's less great at Rogue-ing and much better at Cleric-ing, however. If the player wants to do that. If it's somehow core to their concept that they be a crappy cleric, fine - go to town - but it shouldn't be necessary to make a mechanically poor character in order to "roleplay" it.

You need to teach me how to handle the fundamental disconnect, because I have troubles playing a character who is supossed to be gulible and a poor judge of character, yet never misses a singleinsight check, or a character who is suppossed to be very weak, yet can carry the barbarian on the party with full equipment without slowing down (and again, a Wis 8 cleric isn't a poor character, there is plenty you can do without needing to invoque a saving throw. You could focus on support for example, however a Roue 16/Cleric 1 is fairly ineffective at being a cleric, no matter the Wisdom)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, though it wasn't limited to 2 classes, there was the 3E rule on preferred classes where you suffered XP penalties if your class levels got to far out of balance and they weren't your preferred class ... except I think everyone just ignored that rule.

We never ignored the rule, but I never let it stop me from doing a PC the way I wanted.

 

[bogmad]

I don't think we're disagreeing here. If you want to retain both skill-sets you will be less good at both jobs. However, if you want to rebuild so you're just a Cleric, you're going to be a Cleric of your level.

I'm simply arguing that there's no need to be awful at your new class. If your converted Rogue has an 8 wisdom, there's no need to (1) keep that 8 wisdom forever, or (2) only take cleric levels one at a time. In answer to (1) you can change your stats around. In answer to (2) you can lose some Rogue levels and trade - even all of them.

I don't know that we're disagreeing either. I don't think there's a need to be "awful" at your new class. I'm just arguing that we should be able to have either scenario (i.e. to be able to work with your DM to rebuild as a cleric or to be a cleric with a lower wisdom score if you want to be that kind of multiclassed cleric).