Grrr- double post.
To apologize, I give you a limerick:
There once was a man from Nantucket
With a tiny TV in a bucket
When he watched Jeopardy
Just like Sean Connery
He always told Trebek to "Suck it!"
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Multiclassing Essentials Characters with PHB1 & 2 MC Feats
- Thread starter Uller
- Start date
Grrr- double post.
To apologize, I give you a limerick:
There once was a man from Nantucket
With a tiny TV in a bucket
When he watched Jeopardy
Just like Sean Connery
He always told Trebek to "Suck it!"
Multiclassing was very different when 4E first started. Their were fewer class feats to poach, fewer feat taxes to detour PMC and YOU COULD NOT USE IMPLEMENTS. I think this last one is caps lock important.
Now Multiclassing into Rogue or Fighter to pick up Surprising Charge is more worth it than PMC or even basic power swapping, which is now less attractive when we have feat taxes (to hit, defenses, etc) and the ability to Hybridize a character to better fit a theme.
I think Multiclassing is quite different from what WotC had originally thought it would be, but it's still an effective tool to expand the options of a character. Also, as new feats and hybrid slowly come out that take into account newer Essentials material and possibly even themes that work more like Multiclassing (for instance there's the one theme that allows you to take Wizard utilities w/o a swap feat), we have covered the "branching out" mechanic very well.
Now Multiclassing into Rogue or Fighter to pick up Surprising Charge is more worth it than PMC or even basic power swapping, which is now less attractive when we have feat taxes (to hit, defenses, etc) and the ability to Hybridize a character to better fit a theme.
I think Multiclassing is quite different from what WotC had originally thought it would be, but it's still an effective tool to expand the options of a character. Also, as new feats and hybrid slowly come out that take into account newer Essentials material and possibly even themes that work more like Multiclassing (for instance there's the one theme that allows you to take Wizard utilities w/o a swap feat), we have covered the "branching out" mechanic very well.
Neerfate: indeed. Also, one should not forget probably the cheapest and most effective tool of the multiclasser -- paragon pathing into another classes path.
And frankly, there still are the occasional power worth a swap feat for, even if they're rare.
For instance, my Avenger (Artificer) / Battle Engineer took a swap feat for Slick Concoction (minor action, close burst 3, slide allies in burst 5 squares and they gain +4 reflex). First, there was very little for me in-class; Avenger U10s are pretty mediocre -- probably the best is Avenger's Readiness (initiave daily; shift 3 and +5 init), and there is a 2 round/encounter flight, minor action self-healing, and a teleport/drag power, but the rest is just terrible. Whereas Slick Concoction is amazing; at minimum, it hands out a move action to most of the party, letting the party more easily get in charge range of a foe at the beginning of a battle; more often it sets people up for a party nova, turning on my unity powers and/or gathering people up for Greater Magic Weapon (or splitting them up afterwards).
I could have easily swapped for Vorpal Edge at 16 if I wanted to go crit fishing instead of helping out my crew, too.
And frankly, there still are the occasional power worth a swap feat for, even if they're rare.
For instance, my Avenger (Artificer) / Battle Engineer took a swap feat for Slick Concoction (minor action, close burst 3, slide allies in burst 5 squares and they gain +4 reflex). First, there was very little for me in-class; Avenger U10s are pretty mediocre -- probably the best is Avenger's Readiness (initiave daily; shift 3 and +5 init), and there is a 2 round/encounter flight, minor action self-healing, and a teleport/drag power, but the rest is just terrible. Whereas Slick Concoction is amazing; at minimum, it hands out a move action to most of the party, letting the party more easily get in charge range of a foe at the beginning of a battle; more often it sets people up for a party nova, turning on my unity powers and/or gathering people up for Greater Magic Weapon (or splitting them up afterwards).
I could have easily swapped for Vorpal Edge at 16 if I wanted to go crit fishing instead of helping out my crew, too.
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...Which is not universally possible. For instance, multiclass a PC into ranger. Now, look at the Paragon Path optiions: all Ranger PPs (that I know of) have prerequisites Ranger abilities the MC feat does not grant, leaving the PC unable to take those PPs.
Argyle King
Legend
There are Ranger PPs don't require Ranger class features.
I believe Martial Power has a few.
I believe Martial Power has a few.
A player in my game has chosen Horizon Walker as his PP. Only prerequisite for it is Ranger class.
Thanks for the correction- that's good to know.
However, IMHO, it is a weakness that there are any that do require class features, especially since it mandated a wait for this option to be relased in a subsequent supplement to the game.
I picked ranger to illustrate this because it led to problems with my very first 4Ed PC- at the time, a PHB1 only campaign (since expanded). There may be other Paths for other classes with the same flaw.
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Uller
Adventurer
Yeah I noticed that. Even the essentials Ranger can't take any of the PHB Ranger PPs...kinda ridiculous that the Expert Archer can't take Battlefield Archer or Beast Stalker. One of my players has an Elf Cleric multiclassed as a ranger that uses a bow for a lot of stuff yet he can't take the archer PPs either.
Danny: sure, but not every option is optimal or available for pretty much every case in the rules.
The thing is, it's a very good option. Unlike feat-based power swaps, when you take an out of class PP, you swap a class feature, encounter power, AP feature, utility and (eventually) another class feature and a daily from your main class for one intended for a class you multiclassed into. If you pick the right PP, this can often mean that you get some real multiclass power to throw around.
A multiclass Battle Engineer gets a good attack with a +Wis attack/damage buff, a strong +striker AP feature, and a strong daily weapon buff. Two strong +leader features
A multiclass Soul Igniter (Shaman) gets the ability to boost party speed, reflex, and damage with her Soulfire at will surprisingly often -- 3x when she uses an action point (including herself), as well as whenever anyone crits and once per encounter as part of an encounter power. Again, an excellent option with immediate +leader abilities (as well as some nice bursts).
And while I so don't have time to research it, there are similarly strong options for many other classes. Probably not every class -- but it's hardly an option one can discount.
The thing is, it's a very good option. Unlike feat-based power swaps, when you take an out of class PP, you swap a class feature, encounter power, AP feature, utility and (eventually) another class feature and a daily from your main class for one intended for a class you multiclassed into. If you pick the right PP, this can often mean that you get some real multiclass power to throw around.
A multiclass Battle Engineer gets a good attack with a +Wis attack/damage buff, a strong +striker AP feature, and a strong daily weapon buff. Two strong +leader features
A multiclass Soul Igniter (Shaman) gets the ability to boost party speed, reflex, and damage with her Soulfire at will surprisingly often -- 3x when she uses an action point (including herself), as well as whenever anyone crits and once per encounter as part of an encounter power. Again, an excellent option with immediate +leader abilities (as well as some nice bursts).
And while I so don't have time to research it, there are similarly strong options for many other classes. Probably not every class -- but it's hardly an option one can discount.
What is your point?
Mine is that it is poor design to make Multiclassing Feat dependent and let the PCs qualify for class feats and paragon paths, except for THIS class who can't qualify for any of the new class' Paths...until we release more options down the road in another product. That is either an inattention to design (including playtesting) OR a money grab, because it's not as if the original Ranger Paths from PHB1 are so hella-über powerful that ONLY basic PHB1 rangers should ever be allowed to qualify for them.
I don't discount 4Ed's system except in relation to previous editions: in whatever RPG I'm using, I consider all of my options. In my posts upthread, I noted that all- not some- all of my 4Ed PCs are either MCed, Hybrids, or both.
And that Warlock of mine? When the game was broadened to include non-PHB1 sources, he no longer had the MC feat for Ranger, but had the one for Psions instead. At some point, the Starlock/Psion will be a Dreamwalker.
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