D&D 4E Multiclassing theory for 4e

[Ktulu]

I've been trying to figure out how multiclassing will work in 4e, based on the data we've been given. The early thoughts were that you take a feat to gain a power from another class. To me, this seems easily abused and wouldn't really represent the flavor of a dual classed character.

Another option would be to stick with 3.x and just "take" a level of another class. This doesn't work very well as you have 10th level character's who want to broaden themselves and end up wasting a level on a 1 level of wizard.

From the podcast, they mention what "level" some class features would be equal to as a power. My assumption, based on what we know is the player will take a "Class training" feat that gives access to another classes power list. Also, at certain levels, (1,5,10,15,etc...) you gain a class feature from that class. This is a retroactive ability, meaning, if I am level 10 and I take the "class training" feat, I gain the class features I would have recieved at 1, 5, & 10.

This would do two things. One, at low levels, you wouldn't be able to "cherry pick" a class with a lot of abilities (looking at you, Ranger!), and at high levels you wouldn't be hurting yourself by taking a level 1 ability, you'd get more than that.

This also promotes the idea that higher level characters know more and learn faster, while lower level characters would have to continue to train to become better at their secondary class.

Anyone come to a similar theory, or am I way off base?

Ktulu

 

[mach1.9pants]

I really don't know what it is going to be. It is one of the features of 4E my players are most excited about and I am really looking forward to getting the full info on it.....
However my best guess is that a feat will only give you access to one power swap, feats are probably nerfed in 4E so anything more than replacing your /e ftr power with a /e wiz power would be over powered. I would guess that you could replace this as time goes on for a higher level power, but only ever have one /e power available as wiz. I don't think that even high level PCs will have loads of powers. maybe upto about 5/4/3 or 6/5/3 or something. You'd be able to swap 'em out a'la sorcerer.
From the podcast that multiclassing is not as deep as 3E I have no clue on how mc is going to work....

 

[deathdonut]

What if a "Fighter Training" feat would allow you to take a fighter encounter power as a daily power or an at-will as an encounter power.

Unfortunately, you would lose alot of flavor given from the "free" abilities available to a class unless they made it possible to take them also (sneak attack anyone?).

 

[Ktulu]

I considered both of those. If you just take a feat to get a power, you'll have a LOT of players doing so, just for more powers.

If you take a feat to swap a power, you're not really multiclassing, you're just cherry picking abilities.

My thought is more my fighter takes "class training: rogue" at second level. I can now swap or take powers from the rogue powers list. Also, at X level, I get a class feature of the rogue (sneak attack, for example). At XX level, I then get the rogues specialty with daggers/shurikens.

IF I was already XX level and I take the feat, I get both sneak attack and specialty with daggers/shurikens, along with being able to access the rogue's power list.

Essentially, as I gain level, I get slightly more rogueish. I'm still no match for a fully trained rogue, but I'm also a darn good fighter.

The only drawback I see to this is essentially taking one feat to gain a number of abilities (even though they're "over time"). However, if you assume a feat has to be taken every time to gain an ability, your 10th level fighter who decided to become a wizard didn't get much out of that. In fact, he'd have probably been better off just sticking to the fighter abilities.

On the other hand, using my MC theory, he takes the feat at 10th and gains cantrips, ritual casting, and picks an impliment (according to the gamer girl, a paragon path allows the impliment to be a weapon, so even better!).

All theory, but I'm seriously biting nails waiting to hear their ruling on this.

Ktulu

 

[Jhaelen]

The early thoughts were that you take a feat to gain a power from another class. To me, this seems easily abused and wouldn't really represent the flavor of a dual classed character.

How could this be abused? But I agree that it wouldn't feel like dual-classing. To feel like dual-classing you should get more than just a power, you should get a class ability. There might be a different feat that allows you to pick a power from another class list, however.

My understanding from the latest podcast was that you cannot freely choose what you get from the '<class> training' feat. The feat clearly defines what you get when you take the feat. IIRC, they also mentioned you'd be able to take the feat multiple times to get more class abilities. Another interpretation would be that it's really a feat chain...

If you just take a feat to get a power, you'll have a LOT of players doing so, just for more powers.

Do you really think so? I know, I wouldn't. While having more powers will give you more options it won't do much to make your character stronger. I'd rather take feats that have a constant boosting effect. This will also help to keep the character easily manageable.

 

[Geek-Zilla]

Hindsight being 20/20, I think multi-classing has been a thing of the past since 2E and more so in 3E/3.5E. I mean look at the splat-books that have been published that have character classes that cover a lot of the common class combos, and that's not counting PrCs.

Don't get me wrong...I like to multi-class, heck last time I played Living Greyhawk, I was playing my Sor/Clr/Ftr of Trithereon who was also going to pick up Knight of the Chase and Holy Liberator. It just seems to me that the little bit of information we are getting about 4E seems to imply that multi-classing is NOT really the multi-classing that we are familiar with.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Hindsight being 20/20, I think multi-classing has been a thing of the past since 2E and more so in 3E/3.5E. I mean look at the splat-books that have been published that have character classes that cover a lot of the common class combos, and that's not counting PrCs.

Don't get me wrong...I like to multi-class, heck last time I played Living Greyhawk, I was playing my Sor/Clr/Ftr of Trithereon who was also going to pick up Knight of the Chase and Holy Liberator. It just seems to me the the little bit of information we are getting about 4E seems to imply that multi-classing is NOT really the multi-classing that we are familiar with.

yeah, it seems more like borrowing abilities, then actual multi classing. At least from a build standpoint, thats the single reason why people multiclassed.

 

[Warbringer]

Do you really think so? I know, I wouldn't. While having more powers will give you more options it won't do much to make your character stronger.

Based on what? It's been strongly suggested that when you take a power from multi-classing it will be appropriate in power to all other powers you can take.

Fail to see how this won't make you character stronger

 

[neceros]

A good guess. Sounds like it could work.

However, I think it will be more than that. For instance, How would you get the ability to Sneak Attack without starting a rogue? Could anyone besides a rogue gain Sneak Attack?

Those are the issues I want handled.

 

[Blue]

The designers have that there will two types of "multiclassing" (as we look at it from a 3.5 point of view).

There will be a class training (feat?) that gives you some abilities of another class, and there will be multiclassing by taking levels of another class. But the second isn't 3.x multiclassing, a fighter/rogue is a lot different then a rogue/fighter.

Star Wars SAGA multiclassing doesn't give the skills and stuff automatically, that might be carried over. You need to spend feats to get more trained skills.

Something that I don't hear talked about for multclassing because it's not in the 3.5 framework we're used to is power sources. I think that these matter, perhaps for one of the two flavors more than the other. One thing might be that the level of powers you can pick is much like the Tome of Battle initiator level - like adds up, others count half. So a fighter 10 (martial power source 10) that picks up some ranger (also martial power source) will be picking up to a 10th level ability, but if they grab some wizard abilities (arcane power source) they'll only be picking up to 5th level abilities.

But that's all guesswork.

We do see the half-elf getting an at-will power as an encounter power. This sort of "flavor but reducing the impact by making it used less" might be prevalent for either type of multiclassing. I doubt it's a one-off solution. So maybe you are picking up abilities up to your level (so you don't get the fighter 10 / wizard 1 is a nigh-worthless caster), but with the frequency reduced by one step.

Lots of the framework about we don't know. I'm sure that leveling up a single classed character is going to involve some surprises, it throws a twist into what multiclassing means or doesn't mean, especially if all we have to refer to it is either 3.x multiclassing or AD&D (1 or 2) multiclassing & dualclassing.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)