Multiclassing woes

[Ander00]

Well, yeah, not all classes combos will work.

Of course, "all class combinations work, always" was pure marketing speak, we knew that. But if you can take warlock paragon paths and fully half of their special abilities simply won't function, something is messed up. The life-stealer, which is about collecting life sparks can only do that with its daily... have fun with that.

Edit: to drive that point home: you of course gain this daily ability 9 levels after entering the paragon path, so for 9 levels, the only path ability that will function is the action point one.

I think it's great.

I would agree, but it seems to be really poorly executed.


cheers

 

[Vaeron]

The only thing that makes sense, given the statement that warlock multiclassers can pursue that pact's paragon path, is that they do in fact receive Warlock's Curse and it was simply omitted from the description.

As written now, the multiclasser can take a pact, but not get the boon. So what's the point? ie... the Fey Pact. Boon is Misty Step. A nice little teleport when you kill a monster with your curse. But, oops, multiclassers don't get the curse. And the multiclass feat states you can take the chosen pacts paragon path... BUT many of the Fey paragon powers or abilities I saw were enhancements of the curse or Misty Step (ie, multiclass character couldn't even use them, so why waste feats on them?)

 

[arscott]

Have you considered forgoing the Warlock Paragon Paths, and instead using your paragon path to pick up more warlock powers? Or is that a poor tradeoff?

 

[Lurker37]

Now, multiclassing into warlock just gives you access to the specific pact's at will as a per encounter power, and tells you you can enter into that pact's paragon path. Care to tell me how useful the infernal pact paragon path is with no warlock curse ability ? For that matter, the 12th utility power of Doomsayer paragon path says "You place your warlock's curse upon the target"... only if you multiclassed into it, you don't have one. Does that make the power useless ?

You can get the curse as an at-will power by using paragon multiclassing.

Without that, as I read your quote it seems that the 12th utility is the only way you can apply the curse. You still have the curse - you just don't have an at-will that applies it.

 

[rhm001]

As written now, the multiclasser can take a pact, but not get the boon. So what's the point? ie... the Fey Pact. Boon is Misty Step. A nice little teleport when you kill a monster with your curse. But, oops, multiclassers don't get the curse. And the multiclass feat states you can take the chosen pacts paragon path... BUT many of the Fey paragon powers or abilities I saw were enhancements of the curse or Misty Step (ie, multiclass character couldn't even use them, so why waste feats on them?)

This has to be right. All most of us have seen is the little feat blurb on the table in the preview article. To do anything, the once/encounter must include a curse, and hopefully the detailed paragraph will indicate that the once/encounter includes the req'd curse. It's not overpowered, either, since the ranger multiclass ability grants them Hunter's Quarry. Just to be safe, can someone who has the books confirm this?

 

[Samurai]

This has to be right. All most of us have seen is the little feat blurb on the table in the preview article. To do anything, the once/encounter must include a curse, and hopefully the detailed paragraph will indicate that the once/encounter includes the req'd curse. It's not overpowered, either, since the ranger multiclass ability grants them Hunter's Quarry. Just to be safe, can someone who has the books confirm this?

I have the books, and it is not correct. As written, a Warlock multiclass character gets the Pact Power, NOT Curse.

What's more, you CANNOT get the Curse through Power Swap because a) Curse is not a power, but a class ability, and b) it is an At Will ability and you can only swap an Encounter, a Utility, and a Daily power.

As for comparing it to the Ranger multiclass, they do indeed get Hunter's Quarry, but that is it, no other power! If you were to give Warlock multiclassers the Curse ability AND the Pact Power, they'd be twice as good as any other multiclass character.

Like I said before, there are 2 choices to remedy this:

a) Give them the Warlock's Curse instead of the pact power.

or

b) Give them a Warlock's Mark that does NOT add a damage bonus or provide any inherent benefits, but it triggers other powers and abilities as if it were a Warlock's Curse.

 

[lutecius]

I think it's great. 3E eventually got to be too much like GURPS. With all the classes and prestige classes to cherry pick from, you devolved into a kind of build-your-own-class system. In 4E, class is much more important, but you still get to pick from many options within that class. [...]
Well, yeah, not all classes combos will work.

So basically you're saying multiclassing is bad and we shouldn't expect it to be a viable option.

What if i have a character concept that doesn't fit the existing classes? What if i don't want to be stuck in a role? Should i just be thankful for "still getting to pick the 'many' options within that class"?
Why don't I just try a different combo that does works like other suggested in this thread? Or should I buy books until the class I want is published?

Yes the prestige classes were too many, messy and not always balanced, but what makes you think all the "core" classes to come will be any better?
Really, dipping into other classes seemed like a good idea at first, but they made sure that it would be a suboptimal choice, and that you couldn't actually build anything out of the box your role.

The designers really have a way of scrapping unbalanced things instead of fixing them.

 

[rhm001]

I have the books, and it is not correct. As written, a Warlock multiclass character gets the Pact Power, NOT Curse.

What's more, you CANNOT get the Curse through Power Swap because a) Curse is not a power, but a class ability, and b) it is an At Will ability and you can only swap an Encounter, a Utility, and a Daily power.

As for comparing it to the Ranger multiclass, they do indeed get Hunter's Quarry, but that is it, no other power! If you were to give Warlock multiclassers the Curse ability AND the Pact Power, they'd be twice as good as any other multiclass character.

Like I said before, there are 2 choices to remedy this:

a) Give them the Warlock's Curse instead of the pact power.

or

b) Give them a Warlock's Mark that does NOT add a damage bonus or provide any inherent benefits, but it triggers other powers and abilities as if it were a Warlock's Curse.

That's unfortunate. I understood your point about not getting curses from feats the first time around, and had no issue with it. I do want to quibble with the "twice as good" analysis, though. From what we've heard from people like yourself who have the books, several warlock powers and the warlock paragon paths are tied directly to specific pacts. (Please feel free to clarify this if I have misunderstood the posts.) If that's correct, then, once you choose the path with the feat, you're limited in the powers and paths you can later select. That's not the case with the other classes. There may be a separate balance argument as to whether broader choice is outweighed by a secondary effect from the initial power, but I'm not sure it's so simple as "twice as good."

Can you list/describe what the other two pacts give you? That may help the "overpowered" argument.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

I think it's great. 3E eventually got to be too much like GURPS. With all the classes and prestige classes to cherry pick from, you devolved into a kind of build-your-own-class system. In 4E, class is much more important, but you still get to pick from many options within that class..

Being a HERO fan, when I first read the 3.0 PH (and the section on PrCs in the DMG), and knew that splats were coming, I saw that very thing. That was likely one of the largest reasons I got into D&D again, after not playing 2nd at all. The incredible flexibility where you didn't have to have a class define you, and could just use each level as nothing more than a package deal of skills and abilities for your character concept.
Yeah it got unwieldy at the end, but I still enjoy that approach.

The 4th approach is much different, but I like that as well. I'm working on a Paladin with a Cleric MC, and a Wizard with a Warlock multiclass (I decided to stay in power source for my first characters). With new base classes coming every year in each PH, and more (at least one) in the Players Guides for settings, and more powers and paragon and epic paths in the same, plus in the splats... I see in a couple of years, very few kinds of character concepts that can't be handled with current multiclassing (by PH3 - 24 base classes, 96 Paragon, 12 Epic destinies, (assuming similar info in the next two PHs) scads of powers, plus whatever comes out with setting and splats).

I'm looking forward to what may comve

 

[Zogmo]

Of course multi-classing is going to be limited in a lot of ways. This is done on purpose to make the single class path still attractive. If not, then everyone would end up MCing. Single class PC's are going to be a bit more powerful because it's their specialty.

It's almost impossible to balance things exactly and this is not a perfectly balanced game but they have come really close.