Mystery Man
First Post
Crothian said:
The dump stat has been there since the beginning of time. Well, maybe not that long...
It's part of the game.
Multiple Ability Dependance and other tall tales
- Thread starter Crothian
- Start date
The dump stat has been there since the beginning of time. Well, maybe not that long...
It's part of the game.
JustaPlayer
First Post
Well, two of the classes that I compare to each other are the wizard and the sorcerer. While they only need one stat to perform their primary functions, a wizard with 17 in Int and 10s in everything else is certainly more useful than a sorcerer with 17 in Cha and 10s in everything else.
And the wizard get's the bonus feats? I don't get it.
P.S.
I never understood the people who need "the most posts." *sigh*
And the wizard get's the bonus feats? I don't get it.
P.S.
I never understood the people who need "the most posts." *sigh*
scruffygrognard
Adventurer
My group has shifted from rolling up ability scores to the use of the point buy method (28 pts), much to the chagrin of 2 of our players.
These players think that anything less than a 16 is mediocre and insist that point buy won't allow for effective paladins, monks and other classes thought to suffer from MAD. I totally disagree. With 28 pt. buy (for example) you could easily create decent paladins and monks without having any ability score below 10, so long as you're not married to having ability scores of 16 or higher:
Paladin:
STR 14 (6 pts) INT 10 (2 pts) WIS 14 (6 pts) DEX 10 (2 pts) CON 14 (6 pts) CHR 14 (6 pts)
Monk:
STR 14 (6 pts) INT 10 (2 pts) WIS 14 (6 pts) DEX 14 (6 pts) CON 14 (6 pts) CHR 10 (2 pts)
These players think that anything less than a 16 is mediocre and insist that point buy won't allow for effective paladins, monks and other classes thought to suffer from MAD. I totally disagree. With 28 pt. buy (for example) you could easily create decent paladins and monks without having any ability score below 10, so long as you're not married to having ability scores of 16 or higher:
Paladin:
STR 14 (6 pts) INT 10 (2 pts) WIS 14 (6 pts) DEX 10 (2 pts) CON 14 (6 pts) CHR 14 (6 pts)
Monk:
STR 14 (6 pts) INT 10 (2 pts) WIS 14 (6 pts) DEX 14 (6 pts) CON 14 (6 pts) CHR 10 (2 pts)
Estlor
Explorer
A paladin is a better character if you have a high Strength, Wisdom, and Charisma, but it's not necessary. The argument that you need high scores in all three stems from trying to do too much with the character.
The bottom line is the spellcasting potential of a paladin is pretty poor. Compared to his combat prowess and the abilities powered by his Charimas score, spellcasting is the weakest link of a paladin. It might be sacrelig to say this, but Wisdom is a throwaway score for a paladin. Let me justify.
For a paladin, a high Wisdom score really only translates into spellcasting an a moderate bonus to Will saving throws. On the other hand, a high Charisma translates into better Turn Undead chances, better Lay on Hands totals, and a higher overall bonus to saving throws.
So I put a 10 in Wisdom. What do I lose? Spellcasting, yes, which is poor for a paladin anyway. My high Charisma bonus will keep my Will save respectable, and if I'm worried, I can pick up Iron Will later down the line. I'm not as naturally good at Sensing Motives but I'm a master diplomat and if I want to be good at Sense Motive, I'll just take a few more ranks in it than I would otherwise. If I WANT spellcasting down the line, I can pick up a stat boosting magic item and get there in an instant.
Really, a well-designed paladin would do better putting high scores in Strength and Charisma, which means they're no more MAD than a fighter or a rogue in the end.
The bottom line is the spellcasting potential of a paladin is pretty poor. Compared to his combat prowess and the abilities powered by his Charimas score, spellcasting is the weakest link of a paladin. It might be sacrelig to say this, but Wisdom is a throwaway score for a paladin. Let me justify.
For a paladin, a high Wisdom score really only translates into spellcasting an a moderate bonus to Will saving throws. On the other hand, a high Charisma translates into better Turn Undead chances, better Lay on Hands totals, and a higher overall bonus to saving throws.
So I put a 10 in Wisdom. What do I lose? Spellcasting, yes, which is poor for a paladin anyway. My high Charisma bonus will keep my Will save respectable, and if I'm worried, I can pick up Iron Will later down the line. I'm not as naturally good at Sensing Motives but I'm a master diplomat and if I want to be good at Sense Motive, I'll just take a few more ranks in it than I would otherwise. If I WANT spellcasting down the line, I can pick up a stat boosting magic item and get there in an instant.
Really, a well-designed paladin would do better putting high scores in Strength and Charisma, which means they're no more MAD than a fighter or a rogue in the end.
shaylon
First Post
I am with you here Crothian. Everyone can benefit from better ability scores but I don't think you need to have all 16's to play a Pally or Monk for example. Yes they can benefit from high Str, Cha, and Wis, but they can also lower Int, Con, and Dex if need be to get those scores higher.
-Shay
-Shay
Klaus
First Post
A Paladin can get by with high (14+) stats in only Cha and Str. Their Wisdom can be good (12+), but they can cast spells with 11+ Wis, and by the time they need a 14 Wis to cast spells, they're at what, 16th level? If you use the spell-less variant from Complete Warrior, you don't need more than a 10 Wis anyway...
A Monk can get by without high Str if they get Weapon Finesse (which I house-ruled into needing only a Dex 13+, not a BAB+1, as suggested by Andy Collins). Their damage comes from high base damage coupled with lots of full BAB attacks (I dont buy the "flurry interferes" theory. You get more attacks than a same-level fighter, the penalty eventually disappears, and you gain much more full BAB attacks (up to three!). So a Monk only needs high (14+) stats in Dex and Wis. They can get by with 10s in Str, Con, Int and even less in Cha.
A Monk can get by without high Str if they get Weapon Finesse (which I house-ruled into needing only a Dex 13+, not a BAB+1, as suggested by Andy Collins). Their damage comes from high base damage coupled with lots of full BAB attacks (I dont buy the "flurry interferes" theory. You get more attacks than a same-level fighter, the penalty eventually disappears, and you gain much more full BAB attacks (up to three!). So a Monk only needs high (14+) stats in Dex and Wis. They can get by with 10s in Str, Con, Int and even less in Cha.
Astraldrake
First Post
MAD? maybe
In some ways, all characters are more-or-less dependent on Dex and Int. These two abilities provide for many skill benefits. Wisdom is never a bad thing, either.
I still follow the misguided belief that the Ranger, Bard, Paladin and Monk are dependent on multiple abilities. While you can make a character with low-end scores work, it's best to have at least a 13+ in two or three core abilities for these classes. Charisma seems to be the all-important score for these four classes. Passable Int, Wis and Con scores are also handy. Rangers have the additional need for Str (melee) or Dex (Archer.)
Once again the old AD&D wisdom applies- If you roll crappy ability scores, you're better off being a Fighter.
In some ways, all characters are more-or-less dependent on Dex and Int. These two abilities provide for many skill benefits. Wisdom is never a bad thing, either.
I still follow the misguided belief that the Ranger, Bard, Paladin and Monk are dependent on multiple abilities. While you can make a character with low-end scores work, it's best to have at least a 13+ in two or three core abilities for these classes. Charisma seems to be the all-important score for these four classes. Passable Int, Wis and Con scores are also handy. Rangers have the additional need for Str (melee) or Dex (Archer.)
Once again the old AD&D wisdom applies- If you roll crappy ability scores, you're better off being a Fighter.
hawkwing2k5
First Post
Ok this may get a reaction, its not my intent, the concept of MAD sounds a lot like muchkin gameing to me.
The idea that a Paly or a monk needs all these high stats is pure BS simply because the player is too lazy to think of a concept of the class or the role of the character. Are you playing a character with weakness and faults or are you playing a wanna be godling that is in mortal form.
Since the 1st editon you have had one character that has had the high stat requirement the Paly, however AD&D required you to be only human or if the DM liked you a 1/2 elf.
you also had the code of the paly which if you had a good DM he punked you every chance he got to keep the power character in line throught the use of ROLE playing.
Using the standard array you can make any character great, all it takes is a little thought and a little understanding of the feats and skills.
Like someone else posted
Fighter = Str
Cleric = Wis
Wizard = Int
Druid = Wis
Bard = Chr
Thief = Dex
Paly depends if hes to be front line either STR or Con if hes to be clericish either chr or Wis
Sorcerer = chr
Barbarian = either str or Con
The idea that a Paly or a monk needs all these high stats is pure BS simply because the player is too lazy to think of a concept of the class or the role of the character. Are you playing a character with weakness and faults or are you playing a wanna be godling that is in mortal form.
Since the 1st editon you have had one character that has had the high stat requirement the Paly, however AD&D required you to be only human or if the DM liked you a 1/2 elf.
you also had the code of the paly which if you had a good DM he punked you every chance he got to keep the power character in line throught the use of ROLE playing.
Using the standard array you can make any character great, all it takes is a little thought and a little understanding of the feats and skills.
Like someone else posted
Fighter = Str
Cleric = Wis
Wizard = Int
Druid = Wis
Bard = Chr
Thief = Dex
Paly depends if hes to be front line either STR or Con if hes to be clericish either chr or Wis
Sorcerer = chr
Barbarian = either str or Con
