Multiple Spot/Listen checks with one roll?

[Saeviomagy]

So why does standing near another guard make someone better at listening?

"Hey, did you hear that?"

 

[Li Shenron]

So why does standing near another guard make someone better at listening?

It's obvious that the chance of noticing the noise should be higher. It's not obvious whether a group should be able to hear a noise which one alone could never hear.

A possible rule of thumb (I think it might have even been mentioned in the DMG) is to:

- make a single Spot/Listen roll for the whole group
- using the BEST individual modifier
- adding a +2 bonus every time the group doubles in number, BUT
- capping the result at the max for the best individual

So for ex. a group of 4 guards (with Listen bonuses +0, +0, +2, +2) would roll once with a +6 bonus, but any result over 22 is lowered to 22.

The rule may be different for other skills however, when helping each other should instead possibly achieve a result over the individual possibilities.

 

[Marimmar]

I'd go for the Take 10 approach too, makes it easier and the rogue has a nice DC to see if he manages to stay unnoticed. More guards only increase the likelyhood of them starting to talk amongst each other since guard duty is terribly boring. So I don't see why more should be necessarily better.

~Marimmar

 

[Marimmar]

Watchman, War 1, Wis 10, Feats: Alertness, Skill Focus (Spot), Skills: Spot +7, Listen +4

To remain unnoticed:
Hide DC 17
Move Silently DC 14

Simple as that...

~Marimmar

 

[Sue Bloodbucket]

Well Folx,
I have some trouble imagining a bunch of guards standing close together anyways.
If they are guards worth their salt then they would not stand toe to toe, they would build lines, rings, outer rings and so on. If they aren't they are taking 10 (if and only if they are spotting in the first case) I guess.
IF my charakter sees a bunch of guards ganging up he would propably speed thinks up, 'couse they are up to something, watch-shift or coffee or chatting maybe and letting their guard down most likely. (ha! guards letting their guard down, thats what we nasty germans call a kallauer)

just my o,o2€
Sue

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd go for the Take 10 approach too, makes it easier and the rogue has a nice DC to see if he manages to stay unnoticed. More guards only increase the likelyhood of them starting to talk amongst each other since guard duty is terribly boring. So I don't see why more should be necessarily better.

~Marimmar

Because "the guards are slacking off and chatting to each other" is up to the GM to decide. Furthermore, he needs to describe it to the potential sneaker.

Unless my DM told me that the guards I saw were having a chat and slacking off, then I'd assume they're alert and paying attention.

 

[Marimmar]

Because "the guards are slacking off and chatting to each other" is up to the GM to decide. Furthermore, he needs to describe it to the potential sneaker.

Unless my DM told me that the guards I saw were having a chat and slacking off, then I'd assume they're alert and paying attention.

Quasqueton asked for a good way to handle such situations and since he seems to be the DM it's up to him to decide. I just gave my 2 €uro Cent.

Take a look at the Disguise Skill entry, there it says:

If you come to the attention of people who are suspicious (such as a guard who is watching commoners walking through a city gate), it can be assumed that such observers are taking 10 on their Spot checks.

So why not just use that as a precedence? If you want higher DCs for the guards then use some guard dogs.

~Marimmar

 

[KarinsDad]

This is a classic problem with FRPG "opposed roll" type systems, especially with opposed rolls systems in a linear system (i.e. not bell curved) such as D20 .

For example, say your PCs average a 15% chance to make a Listen roll (assume for this example all the PCs have the same Listen modifier to the roll). Depending on the number of PCs, the chances of at least one of them making the roll are:

1 15%
2 28%
3 39%
4 48%
5 56%
6 62%

Now, increase this to 20%, a mere 5%:

1 20%
2 36%
3 49%
4 59%
5 67%
6 74%

The more rolls you make, the more likely it is that the roll IS made.

But in the case of a Rogue, either he makes noise or he does not. Adding a million guys listening should NOT make it significantly easier for them to hear him.

Either he is real quiet, or he is not.

Hence, the best solution is to make one or two rolls (say the closest guard to the right of where the Rogue is entering and/or the closest one to the left).

The guards beyond these one or two are basically taking 10.

So, if the Rogue foobars and his Move Silent is within the take 10 range of the guards, he steps on a twig and it cracks loud and everyone looks in his direction.

Otherwise, one or two guards gets to roll and they either make his Move Silent DC or they do not.

Simple.

Plus, this system can be reused for many other situations.

For example, PCs searching for a secret door in a small complex. Randomly pick one PC as the one who searched the 5 foot area where the secret door actually is, have them all roll, but only pay attention to the result of the roll by that one PC.

Otherwise, if you allow more than two rolls in most circumstances, somebody is almost bound to make the roll and you have to wonder why you had them roll in the first place.


So when it comes to opposed rolls, only allow one or two of them to be real ones and it will resolve a lot of mathematical (and number of dice to roll) problems with your opposed rolls in a linear system.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

"Hey, did you hear that?"

"Yes, because I have the same number of ranks in listen as you do, am also taking 10, and that guy trying to sneak past rolled less than required to succeed. Had I not also heard it, it would mean that you are standing closer to the source of the sound than I am, which says nothing about the quality of our skill at listening, but does point out the utility of using multiple listeners to overcome distance penalties."

edit:

The problem with using additive probabilities is that if you have a master thief sneaking behind a curtain, if you have enough guards on the other side of the curtain you can all but guarantee that they'll hear him.

Let's say that any individual guard will only succeed on a 20. If there are 20 guards, the chance of success is about 65%. Which seems excessively high, considering that this is a "master thief" and he's trying to sneak past 1st level nobodies. If the guards use an additive probability method to detect the thief, 65% is the minimum chance for 20 guards to detect him, and if the thief puts one more rank in, the chance drops to zero, because they need to roll 21 in order to hear him. I find that 65% drop pretty weird, and would like to give the thief more credit for being sneaky than that. If there were 50 guards, the chance is increased to 92%. This doesn't account for distance penalties, but how could it without becoming even more unnecessarily complicated? Again, add one rank of Move Silently and the chance drops from 92% to zero.

On the other hand, a single listen roll can be made for all the guards, as per the description of the Listen skill. This gives a 5% chance to hear the thief, which drops a mere 5% to 0% if he gets another rank. If you really want to, you can use Aid Another to give a +2 bonus to a particular individual. However, I'd want to cap the maximum number of aiders pretty low, possibly only two, especially if the guards are 10 feet apart from one another. That would give the guards a 25% chance to hear the thief, which might be fair.

IMO, to use additive probability is unrealistic, and it devalues the Move Silently skill as a result.

 

[Scion]

Personally, I think that a 'master thief' would have more than +10 move silently.

If there are 20 guards listening and trying to spot I would definately expect them to have a better chance than a single guard. It should be harder to sneak past multiple people, that is part of the reason why more than one person is put to guard places. It is harder to take out multiple people at once and it is harder to sneak past multiple people at once.

Low level guards taking 10 will effectively never spot or hear anyone with any skill at all, it would be nearly as good to simply leave the corridor open, at least it would cost less.

But, put 4 of these low level guards around and they can watch more area and are more likely to catch people, even if they talk with one another. That doesnt necissarily make them less observant, it might even help them stay awake, or on track, or lets one notice if the other suddenly succumbs to some magical effect.

Point being, it 'should' be harder to sneak past multiple people than just one, and the +2 demonstrates this or multiple rolls or a combination (as I supported above). It isnt a huge bonus, and it is still possible to sneak past multiple guards, but at least it is more difficult.

The master thief (likely with at least a +20) probably couldnt be spotted except by quite a few guards who have several ranks in spot at least, good then. Instead of him being able to walk past any number of people who have a +19 or less.