Starbuck_II
Explorer
Jar Jar was awesome. What movies were you watching?Some folks think Jar Jar Binks is awesome, too.
Mundane vs. Fantastical
- Thread starter Remathilis
- Start date
Barastrondo
First Post
The problem with mundane animals as antagonists that I've encountered is less boredom and more sympathy. My players know animals pretty well, and it's just really not much of a noble fantasy for them to beat up wolves or bears. If I had wolves or hyenas attack the party, they'd say "Holy crap, something must be really wrong for these poor critters to be acting so out of character." A bear might be more plausible, but it's still sympathetic to the players. This is only reinforced by other games we're into like Werewolf.
Other than that, my players are quite happy with a mix of the mundane (gritty urban gangs with knives) and fantastical (holy crap is that an arctic manticore?) in their fantasy, as long as a little bit of thought is put into the presentation.
Other than that, my players are quite happy with a mix of the mundane (gritty urban gangs with knives) and fantastical (holy crap is that an arctic manticore?) in their fantasy, as long as a little bit of thought is put into the presentation.
Imaro
Legend
Well I definitely fall into the "more mundane" is better crowd. I like for my monsters to really be MONSTERS. Thus a darker tone more similar to Swords & Sorcery fiction is maintained. I like for the protagonists in my game to...
1. Rarely encounter true monsters. ( as opposed to how many orcs are slain in something like LotR)
2. Be frightened or at least wary, because they recognize monsters as unnatural and rare, and are uncertain of their weaknesses and strengths.
3. Usually fight true monsters in epic climactic battles as opposed to over and over again.
I think the norm of mundane creatures and battles can really bring home the impact of fighting something truly monstrous and dangerous... something I feel has been greatly tossed aside in D&D. Even something like Avatar had mostly battles between mundane (for their world at least) humans with a rare "monster" encounter every so often.
1. Rarely encounter true monsters. ( as opposed to how many orcs are slain in something like LotR)
2. Be frightened or at least wary, because they recognize monsters as unnatural and rare, and are uncertain of their weaknesses and strengths.
3. Usually fight true monsters in epic climactic battles as opposed to over and over again.
I think the norm of mundane creatures and battles can really bring home the impact of fighting something truly monstrous and dangerous... something I feel has been greatly tossed aside in D&D. Even something like Avatar had mostly battles between mundane (for their world at least) humans with a rare "monster" encounter every so often.
Hussar
Legend
To me, this is a much more interesting point.
Sure, giant apes are cool. But, what's the difference between a giant ape and, say, an ogre? Why, as a player, would I particularly care if I'm fighting either one? Or, to put it another way, what will distinguish the two from each other?
To me, it's all about the set up. Mechanically, an ogre and a big ape aren't going to be all that different except for the climb speed. Sure, the ogre might have a club, but, in the end, that's the only difference that matters to me.
So, play to the type. The ape makes hit and run attacks. Sure, (assuming 3e here) he'll take some AOO's (give him mobility to mitigate that) and maybe take some extra hits, but, have him run in, attack, then run out up a tree. Next he leaps onto a player (bull rush? Trip attack?) then run up another tree. Play up the speed aspect - have him withdraw and come back from a different direction.
To me, this would make the fight much more memorable.
cool. once you get the list you could compare to the mm, add up the exp, ad get conan's level.
Gygax presented full AD&D stats for Conan in Dragon #36 (April 1980), at a variety of different ages (15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50, 60, and 70).
Heh... there's no accounting for taste.
But even if you personally can't stand BtVS, it does illustrate the point that people relate to characters and their relationships, even if the trappings are more-or-less absurd.
Wombat
First Post
I have always enjoyed what I refer to as "Realistic Fantasy", a notion that while there will be fantastical elements to a game or story, that there is also an underlying sense of believability to the matter. If you have nothing but stranger monsters everywhere, how does the world exist? If heroes are constantly bringing millions of gold coins into local villages, how does the economy work out? If
Writers that fit this general sense for me include Tolkein, Guy Gavriel Kay, Ursual LeGuin, George R.R. Martin, Charles de Lint, and a host of others. It does not include Michael Moorcock and most of the writers of D&D (or other rpg) novels.
In games, I am currently drawn to Ars Magica, but I also love Harnmaster; in the past RuneQuest also did me well and others have had luck with Riddle of Steel and Burning Wheel. Under D&D, I can, with a lot of effort, tweak the rules to fit such a world -- my Faceless Statues and Tales of New Mavarga campaigns stood the test and my players loved these above all other D20 campaigns they had been in, something that makes me truly proud.
RAW D&D does not make for such a setting. It takes some serious tweaking and runs against some of the more expected elements of the game. Still, I find such efforts repay well with a game where the players can really get into character simply because they know that certain base elements of reality still exist, thus making the amazing changes the more wondrous.
Writers that fit this general sense for me include Tolkein, Guy Gavriel Kay, Ursual LeGuin, George R.R. Martin, Charles de Lint, and a host of others. It does not include Michael Moorcock and most of the writers of D&D (or other rpg) novels.
In games, I am currently drawn to Ars Magica, but I also love Harnmaster; in the past RuneQuest also did me well and others have had luck with Riddle of Steel and Burning Wheel. Under D&D, I can, with a lot of effort, tweak the rules to fit such a world -- my Faceless Statues and Tales of New Mavarga campaigns stood the test and my players loved these above all other D20 campaigns they had been in, something that makes me truly proud.
RAW D&D does not make for such a setting. It takes some serious tweaking and runs against some of the more expected elements of the game. Still, I find such efforts repay well with a game where the players can really get into character simply because they know that certain base elements of reality still exist, thus making the amazing changes the more wondrous.
Hussar
Legend
Couple of other thoughts.
On Conan - it really depends on what you mean by Conan when you start tossing his name around. There's been a couple of dozen, at least, writers produce Conan stories in various forms - novels, short stories, comics (I loves me lots Savage Sword of Conan) - and each is a bit different for any number of reasons. It's kind of like saying the only Batman you can talk about are stories written by Bob Kane. Anyone else doesn't matter. Only, that's a bit of a stretch. Sure, I love the REH Conan stories, but, then again, there's others I like as well. I would certainly not tell Roy Thomas that his Conan wasn't up to snuff.
As far as making the mundane fantastic, it really depends on your setting. If you're using any of the default settings - Greyhawk, FR, whatever, - then the wahoo level is going to be pretty high. Besides, monsters are fun. Sure, it's great to stab a bear, but, really, it's Dungeon's and DRAGONS. I want some critters.
On Conan - it really depends on what you mean by Conan when you start tossing his name around. There's been a couple of dozen, at least, writers produce Conan stories in various forms - novels, short stories, comics (I loves me lots Savage Sword of Conan) - and each is a bit different for any number of reasons. It's kind of like saying the only Batman you can talk about are stories written by Bob Kane. Anyone else doesn't matter. Only, that's a bit of a stretch. Sure, I love the REH Conan stories, but, then again, there's others I like as well. I would certainly not tell Roy Thomas that his Conan wasn't up to snuff.
As far as making the mundane fantastic, it really depends on your setting. If you're using any of the default settings - Greyhawk, FR, whatever, - then the wahoo level is going to be pretty high. Besides, monsters are fun. Sure, it's great to stab a bear, but, really, it's Dungeon's and DRAGONS. I want some critters.
This hits a problem I've started to notice with magical items (other than they not really tell us the ingredients needed to make the items listed by a player): 4th Edition is so High Fantasy that the magical items seem very nerfed compared to past editions.
One example from the new Adventurer's Vault: Pouch of Platinum. What does it do? It takes gems or gold or lesser metal pieces and "exchanges" them for their equivalent in Platinum Pieces. If there isn't enough money to exchange for a platinum piece, those pieces remain as they were. The level 4e decided that this item is appropriate for? 5th level.
In 3.5e the closest I could find to a pouch with similar items is the epic artifact pouch that multiplied one gold piece into ten gold pieces. So from 31/2 to 4, we've gone from something that may well would have been considered an artifact (epic artifact at that) to a magical item that adventurers might pick up after defeating a creature with the abilities slightly better than the average bear!
This is in a world where most towns and villages they would into would sell most things for copper pieces or silver pieces at best! Cities are very far and few between, and yet this could be put into an adventurer's hands who could well be in the middle of their Heroic tier? I could imagine...
(By the way, one other little complaint: They renamed the immovable rod as the immovable shaft. That's just not right.)
One example from the new Adventurer's Vault: Pouch of Platinum. What does it do? It takes gems or gold or lesser metal pieces and "exchanges" them for their equivalent in Platinum Pieces. If there isn't enough money to exchange for a platinum piece, those pieces remain as they were. The level 4e decided that this item is appropriate for? 5th level.
In 3.5e the closest I could find to a pouch with similar items is the epic artifact pouch that multiplied one gold piece into ten gold pieces. So from 31/2 to 4, we've gone from something that may well would have been considered an artifact (epic artifact at that) to a magical item that adventurers might pick up after defeating a creature with the abilities slightly better than the average bear!
This is in a world where most towns and villages they would into would sell most things for copper pieces or silver pieces at best! Cities are very far and few between, and yet this could be put into an adventurer's hands who could well be in the middle of their Heroic tier? I could imagine...
Raliena drifted into the local village tavern with a slight grimace on her face. She just took out the bear who killed her pa, and then vanquished the warlock who commanded the bear to kill him in the first place. All he had was a pouch might well could be magical, but in this two-horse village, probably didn't have a wizard or cleric who could discern whether this pouch was magical or not.
"Here's your ale. That will be 5 silver pieces, lass," the wench said through her beard. Hadn't dwarven women heard of the idea of shaving? Raliena thought as she reached into her new found purse. Her eyes widened as she couldn't feel any of the gold coins she had put into that purse. She pulled out a lone platinum piece that was there in the pouch, which was impossible, the pouch had nothing in it before she put her loot in there.
The wench and pretty much every patron had stopped to look at her. Raliena weakly mumbled, "Anyone have change for a platinum?"
"Here's your ale. That will be 5 silver pieces, lass," the wench said through her beard. Hadn't dwarven women heard of the idea of shaving? Raliena thought as she reached into her new found purse. Her eyes widened as she couldn't feel any of the gold coins she had put into that purse. She pulled out a lone platinum piece that was there in the pouch, which was impossible, the pouch had nothing in it before she put her loot in there.
The wench and pretty much every patron had stopped to look at her. Raliena weakly mumbled, "Anyone have change for a platinum?"
(By the way, one other little complaint: They renamed the immovable rod as the immovable shaft. That's just not right.)
Er, platinum pouch != Artifact pouch
The platinum pouch doesn't actually do anything except perhaps make your treasure easier to carry....
The artifact pouch...That's an entirely differently kettle of fish...
re: Fantastic vs Mundane
What's the cutoff point? I've seen people mention giant scorpions but like another poster, giant scorpions are definitely fantastical.
Are Illithids fantastical? Is mundane just things that existed on Earth (thus excluding the Dire animals? )
The platinum pouch doesn't actually do anything except perhaps make your treasure easier to carry....
The artifact pouch...That's an entirely differently kettle of fish...
re: Fantastic vs Mundane
What's the cutoff point? I've seen people mention giant scorpions but like another poster, giant scorpions are definitely fantastical.
Are Illithids fantastical? Is mundane just things that existed on Earth (thus excluding the Dire animals? )
