Mustrum's Mythical Fighter Techniques

[Crazy Jerome]

Dealbreaker
Spend 1 Stamina. You try to convince the rest of the party to let you have the magic mace +2/+3 against owlbears but sell the wand, staff, and elven boots, or if you don't you'll take your sword and go home. If they make a Wis save against your Cha -5, they realize that this is a hollow threat--or where not hollow, not without its good side.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

I found a +3 Dealbreaker in a dragon horde once. I found that on balance, it wasn't worth the exotic weapon proficiency feat.

 

[Elf Witch]

I think it's a good start.

I don't think it goes far enough. If we keep the standard D&D wizard, he's still flying around at level 5 whilst throwing nasty ranged attacks. (Did you see fly at level 3 on the playtest survey?) Right now this guy's level 18 abilities are on par with a level 9 3e wizard, and I'm being generous. He's got legendary willpower, but that's really vague and badly worded (does a forcecage count as encapsulation? How about being grappled by a horned devil?) Anyhoo, here's some stuff he's missing.

1)Ability to break magical protections. D&D wizards have always packed "screw you" defensive spells, to the point where "my fighter protects the wizard" was always a laughable fiction the smart wizard players entertained so as not to waste slots on animate dead/summon monster/charm/whatever.

2)Actual, honest-to-god flight of some sort. No really. That thing where fighters are completely useless against flying enemies has got to stop. We can rip off wuxia here, why the hell not. I see you have plenty of abilities which allow you to jump higher, but as it is the superhumanly intelligent magic flying lizard can stay out of range and drop giant rocks/cast spells/breathe fire on you until you die. And you will die.

3)An actual, reliable allies list might be better than "X levels of dudes." Just so fighter players know what to expect rather than arguing with the DM for half an hour. Of course, as "argue common sense with the DM" is one of the design goals of Next, I'm not sure how big of a difference that makes.


Lastly, some things need clarification. What qualifies as a favor? Does "obey all my orders for the rest of your life" count? That's something that should be clarified by you, the designer, before the inevitable 3-hour argument with the DM over common sense and how scary your fighter is. "He killed the lich king by himself! He should be able to scare Joe Shopkeeper into being his slave for life!" Some sort of limit on the negotiations would be cool too, so that you don't get "Well, the lvl 20 abjurer wants 1 million gp. I guess you guys don't have banishment before the big demon fight."

Also, this guy is pretty MAD and you can bet the wizards and co won't be.

All in all, it's a pretty good start. I could see a party of wizards and clerics in 3.5 bringing along one of these guys, but they wouldn't be considered the same power level by a long shot.

I think a mechanic that would let a fighter channel combat powers into higher saves would be a good thing and help them break through magical constraints.

No a thousand times no. Wuxia ia a very limited style of play and does not fit a lot of campaigns. While I have never had a problem dealing with flying wizards instead of letting the fighters fly for no other reason than game mechanics it would be better to to find ways to deal with a flying wizard. Maybe raise the level of the spell. Take away the automatic featherfall. Instead of allowing them to hover like helicopter require that they have wings and have to move to stay in the air which would require concentration checks to cast spells. Also a decent wing span would prevent the spell from being used in dungeons, building or even heavy cover of trees.

 

[WarlockLord]

I think a mechanic that would let a fighter channel combat powers into higher saves would be a good thing and help them break through magical constraints.

No a thousand times no. Wuxia ia a very limited style of play and does not fit a lot of campaigns. While I have never had a problem dealing with flying wizards instead of letting the fighters fly for no other reason than game mechanics it would be better to to find ways to deal with a flying wizard. Maybe raise the level of the spell. Take away the automatic featherfall. Instead of allowing them to hover like helicopter require that they have wings and have to move to stay in the air which would require concentration checks to cast spells. Also a decent wing span would prevent the spell from being used in dungeons, building or even heavy cover of trees.

That's a terrible solution. Great, you nerfed the PC capable of fight, let's go fight that balor. The one with the wings and ranged spell attacks. Or the dragon, who has no reason to land next to a bunch of melee monsters. and will simply fly and strafe.

If you can't stand flying fighters, at the very least rip off the Final Fantasy dragoon.

Also, a lot of PCs will not fight in a dungeon like that - easier to seal all the entrances and throw in a cloudkill, then massacre escaping survivors.

 

[Elf Witch]

That's a terrible solution. Great, you nerfed the PC capable of fight, let's go fight that balor. The one with the wings and ranged spell attacks. Or the dragon, who has no reason to land next to a bunch of melee monsters. and will simply fly and strafe.

If you can't stand flying fighters, at the very least rip off the Final Fantasy dragoon.

Also, a lot of PCs will not fight in a dungeon like that - easier to seal all the entrances and throw in a cloudkill, then massacre escaping survivors.

It is a trade off it gives the ability to power his save after all if he is trapped he not using his combat resources.

It is it not nerfing it in every situation unless your fighter spends all his time in magical traps and fails his save every single time.

In that situation he is not strong as he usually is as a fighter but he is till got all his basic abilities plus he is not stuck in a magical constraint.

I am all for giving the fighter more power but not making him so powerful that he never fails or that he he gets special abilities without limitations.

Really in every dungeon you have fought in that is all you have done? There was no secret passages or other ways for them to escape? how utterly and completely boring.

Why is it when anyone gives a solution to an issue to reign in and control things by DM design rather then mechanical changes someone will always say well that won't work on this situation?

I don't know how we have fought dragons and Balors for over 30 years without fighters having a supernatural ability to fly.

Oh wait I know we work as team and use good tactics one which is trying to fight the dragon on the ground but if that doesn't work I have seen the wizard cast fly on the party members best suited for going toe to toe with the dragon. Which was usually the fighter or the rogue. A wizard can still fire ranged spells at the dragon in the air the archers can fire arrows at it.

Another solution we have used was to get potions of fly in case everyone needed to be able to fly.

Another solution without breaking the believability for a lot of us is an item for the fighter to be able to activate that allows him to fly.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think it's a good start.

I don't think it goes far enough. If we keep the standard D&D wizard, he's still flying around at level 5 whilst throwing nasty ranged attacks. (Did you see fly at level 3 on the playtest survey?) Right now this guy's level 18 abilities are on par with a level 9 3e wizard, and I'm being generous. He's got legendary willpower, but that's really vague and badly worded (does a forcecage count as encapsulation? How about being grappled by a horned devil?) Anyhoo, here's some stuff he's missing.

We don't know yet how Forcecage will work - if it allows a save, the Fighter will be able to deal with, if it doesn't, WotC screw up and Monte Cook is secretly still working for WotC, boosting the spellcasters.

I really don't want the Fighter to be flying without magic - but I like the idea of him jumping extreme heights and distance - the abilities are already there. The trick is to word these sensibly, I think.

Maybe I should have a new ability for that.

I'm Gonna Ride the Dragon (Level 6)
As the Dragon turns on his wings for another attack with his breath weapon, you start running and jump onto him...
Spend one stamina to make a jump 4 times as wide and high as normal, and make a melee attack roll with advantage against an opponent within range (including a flying opponent). If you hit, you do not deal damage but instead have latched onto the target. If it's your size or smaller, it will fall down with you and cannot fly until you let go. If it's larger than you, it's flight speed is reduced in half. You are considered grabbing the creature and have advantage for all checks to avoid being thrown off until the end of your next turn. You can make normal melee attacks against the target. Whenever you would fail a check to keep on the target, you can immediately spend one point of stamina to keep latching on and gain advantage on all checks doing so for another round.
[Note: The ability is explicitly formulated giving advantages on this activity - this gives leeway to allow this maneuver to everyone, not just fighters with this ability. But the Fighter will have an easier time.]

1)Ability to break magical protections. D&D wizards have always packed "screw you" defensive spells, to the point where "my fighter protects the wizard" was always a laughable fiction the smart wizard players entertained so as not to waste slots on animate dead/summon monster/charm/whatever.

This may be interesting.

Spellbreaker (Level 9)
You notice the enemy's protective spells - this isn't the first time you've seen such in action, and you learned a few tricks to deal with them.
When you hit an opponent that is protected or affected by benefital magical effects with your melee attack, you can spend 3 stamina to suppress the effect. If there are multiple effects at work, choose one effect if you know the specific effect, or the DM chooses the strongest effect affecting the target. The effect remains suppressed until you spend a round neither adjacent to the target nor attacking it.
[NOTE: If a DM finds it inappropriate in his campaign that the fighter can counter magic without using magic himself, you may require that the fighter has a magical item, for example a magical weapon -for this purpose.]

Lastly, some things need clarification. What qualifies as a favor? Does "obey all my orders for the rest of your life" count? That's something that should be clarified by you, the designer, before the inevitable 3-hour argument with the DM over common sense and how scary your fighter is. "He killed the lich king by himself! He should be able to scare Joe Shopkeeper into being his slave for life!" Some sort of limit on the negotiations would be cool too, so that you don't get "Well, the lvl 20 abjurer wants 1 million gp. I guess you guys don't have banishment before the big demon fight."

If you're willing to spend 7 stamina every day for a long-term favor, sure, you can do that. The important part is that the FIghter has advantage on any checks involving this negotation. Of course the DM can be a d*ck about it and never let the party roll or decide between 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 astral diamonds - but really, do we need rules to cover d*cks? If we had that, we'd need rules in 4E like "A buzzing fly does not impede on a short or extended rest, even if DM d*ckward would like it to be so."
Also, the target can always choose to live with the death mark and risk the fighter having the ability to kill him at any time.

The most abusive way to use this would probably be to threaten a party member in eternal servitude, forever giving him advantage on all ability checks. But hey, that's 7 stamina each day for one ally getting advantage. I think it's about as far as a trade off as casting Extended Bull Strength, Cat's Grace, Endurance, Eagle's Splender, Owl's Wisdom and Fox Cunning on an ally in 3E. Except probably even more costly than in 3E, since 3E did give wizards much more spells per day than any edition before (and quite possibly any edition afterwards...)

Also, this guy is pretty MAD and you can bet the wizards and co won't be.

I probably should settle down on one ability score. We'll see.

 

[Elf Witch]

We don't know yet how Forcecage will work - if it allows a save, the Fighter will be able to deal with, if it doesn't, WotC screw up and Monte Cook is secretly still working for WotC, boosting the spellcasters.

I really don't want the Fighter to be flying without magic - but I like the idea of him jumping extreme heights and distance - the abilities are already there. The trick is to word these sensibly, I think.

Maybe I should have a new ability for that.

I'm Gonna Ride the Dragon (Level 6)
As the Dragon turns on his wings for another attack with his breath weapon, you start running and jump onto him...
Spend one stamina to make a jump 4 times as wide and high as normal, and make a melee attack roll with advantage against an opponent within range (including a flying opponent). If you hit, you do not deal damage but instead have latched onto the target. If it's your size or smaller, it will fall down with you and cannot fly until you let go. If it's larger than you, it's flight speed is reduced in half. You are considered grabbing the creature and have advantage for all checks to avoid being thrown off until the end of your next turn. You can make normal melee attacks against the target. Whenever you would fail a check to keep on the target, you can immediately spend one point of stamina to keep latching on and gain advantage on all checks doing so for another round.
[Note: The ability is explicitly formulated giving advantages on this activity - this gives leeway to allow this maneuver to everyone, not just fighters with this ability. But the Fighter will have an easier time.]


This may be interesting.

Spellbreaker (Level 9)
You notice the enemy's protective spells - this isn't the first time you've seen such in action, and you learned a few tricks to deal with them.
When you hit an opponent that is protected or affected by benefital magical effects with your melee attack, you can spend 3 stamina to suppress the effect. If there are multiple effects at work, choose one effect if you know the specific effect, or the DM chooses the strongest effect affecting the target. The effect remains suppressed until you spend a round neither adjacent to the target nor attacking it.
[NOTE: If a DM finds it inappropriate in his campaign that the fighter can counter magic without using magic himself, you may require that the fighter has a magical item, for example a magical weapon -for this purpose.]



If you're willing to spend 7 stamina every day for a long-term favor, sure, you can do that. The important part is that the FIghter has advantage on any checks involving this negotation. Of course the DM can be a d*ck about it and never let the party roll or decide between 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 astral diamonds - but really, do we need rules to cover d*cks? If we had that, we'd need rules in 4E like "A buzzing fly does not impede on a short or extended rest, even if DM d*ckward would like it to be so."
Also, the target can always choose to live with the death mark and risk the fighter having the ability to kill him at any time.

The most abusive way to use this would probably be to threaten a party member in eternal servitude, forever giving him advantage on all ability checks. But hey, that's 7 stamina each day for one ally getting advantage. I think it's about as far as a trade off as casting Extended Bull Strength, Cat's Grace, Endurance, Eagle's Splender, Owl's Wisdom and Fox Cunning on an ally in 3E. Except probably even more costly than in 3E, since 3E did give wizards much more spells per day than any edition before (and quite possibly any edition afterwards...)


I probably should settle down on one ability score. We'll see.

I see a few problems with the dragon. If you make the dragon lose speed just because it has a smaller creature on its back then you are also preventing dragon riders. Horse don't run slower when they have a rider on their back why would a dragon fly slower?

Also I don't see how you can make normal melee attacks when you are basically grappling the dragon the grappling rules should still apply.

Spellbreaker could also be problematic it could seriously effect the spellcaster from being able to be in combat if they are going to lose their mage armor. I can understand wanting to level the playing field but it is not level if it is strewn with dead wizards.

It should only last one round not the entire time the fighter is near the spellcaster.

Does the protection go down for everyone attacking the mage or just the fighter?

 

[Libramarian]

Frankly, to the Abyss with dealbreakers.

Tell us what you do want. Tell us why you want it. Tell us why you think it would be good for the game. Then, if you really really must, tell us why you cannot accept having a "mythical" fighter standing alongside the type of fighter that you do want even though that would create more options for everyone.

Preferably, in another thread, though.

The thing is I don't really want anything. I'm already pretty satisfied with earlier editions. I'm not excited by anything I've seen so far. I'm not confident in this design team's ability to actually wow me with anything. I just have a default interest in DDN because it has D&D on the cover, and it will have the most players. So right now I do look at it in terms of dealbreakers: what would spoil my default interest.

Regarding mythic fantasy D&D, I don't think there was ever any explicit design decision during the development of the last edition to move away from sword & sorcery to a more mythic feel. I think it just happened out of necessity because there's only so many ways you can describe a metric ton of mechanical grid powers before the fluff starts getting wacky and dream logic-y. Some people like the result aesthetically. I find it cheesy.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I see a few problems with the dragon. If you make the dragon lose speed just because it has a smaller creature on its back then you are also preventing dragon riders. Horse don't run slower when they have a rider on their back why would a dragon fly slower?

Horses are slower with a rider on them! They have to carry extra weight. Whether that's mechanically explicitly expressed is another matter.

But the speed reduction in this case comes from the fact that the Fighter isn't really riding the Dragon or whatever he jumped onto - he's fighting it! He's sticking his sword into the Dragon Wings or whatever he needs to do to keep a solid grip.

Also I don't see how you can make normal melee attacks when you are basically grappling the dragon the grappling rules should still apply.

I don't remember right now what the grapple rules are, but just assume that on any roll, the Fighter has advantage. And this ability lets him grab any sized target, even if he would normally not be able to do so.

Spellbreaker could also be problematic it could seriously effect the spellcaster from being able to be in combat if they are going to lose their mage armor. I can understand wanting to level the playing field but it is not level if it is strewn with dead wizards.

That's not problematic, that's the desired feature. A Wizard can cast something like Fly and just get out of reach of the Fighter and then fireball and magic missile him from range. One could already say that the default assumption of a mid-to-high level Wizard vs a Fighter is a playing field strewn with dead fighters.
Sure, the Fighter could try some "creative" solutions, but this ability ensures that the Wizard also needs to come up with "creative" solutions occasionally. It is leveling the playing field.

It should only last one round not the entire time the fighter is near the spellcaster.

I disagree. IF the spellcaster cannot find a way to get away from the Fighter, then he doesn't deserve to escape. It would be hard enough for the fighter to get to a decently buffed (flying?) wizard in the first place. A lot of wizards tend to have get-out-of-jail cards anyway (Dimension Door, Teleport?), so it will be hard enough for the Fighter in the first place.

Does the protection go down for everyone attacking the mage or just the fighter?

Everyone.

 

[Elf Witch]

Horses are slower with a rider on them! They have to carry extra weight. Whether that's mechanically explicitly expressed is another matter.

But the speed reduction in this case comes from the fact that the Fighter isn't really riding the Dragon or whatever he jumped onto - he's fighting it! He's sticking his sword into the Dragon Wings or whatever he needs to do to keep a solid grip.

I don't remember right now what the grapple rules are, but just assume that on any roll, the Fighter has advantage. And this ability lets him grab any sized target, even if he would normally not be able to do so.

That's not problematic, that's the desired feature. A Wizard can cast something like Fly and just get out of reach of the Fighter and then fireball and magic missile him from range. One could already say that the default assumption of a mid-to-high level Wizard vs a Fighter is a playing field strewn with dead fighters.
Sure, the Fighter could try some "creative" solutions, but this ability ensures that the Wizard also needs to come up with "creative" solutions occasionally. It is leveling the playing field.

I disagree. IF the spellcaster cannot find a way to get away from the Fighter, then he doesn't deserve to escape. It would be hard enough for the fighter to get to a decently buffed (flying?) wizard in the first place. A lot of wizards tend to have get-out-of-jail cards anyway (Dimension Door, Teleport?), so it will be hard enough for the Fighter in the first place.

Everyone.

I owned horses and rode competitively and while it is true horse don't run as fast with more weight hence small jockeys it is not as much as what you are suggesting.

Okay does the fighter still have to roll to hit? Also he should be taking some kind of penalty for being on a dragons back without a saddle he has to use at least one hand to hold on. He should not be able to just have his normal melee attack.

So to counter fly you want a fighter to be able to wipe out a wizards protections in most combats. If a fighter gets on a wizard and goes toe to toe you will have a dead wizard this is without your extra kick thing. Wizards do not usually have the hit points or the armor to go toe to toe with a fighter.

Do your parties not have ranged weapons to deal with a wizard flying and casting spells. Do you not have clerics, druids and other mages to summon flying creatures or throw area spells at the flying wizard?