Mutants & Masterminds: Question about power stunts and extra's

[RigaMortus2]

I am new to this game and trying to read up on the rules and what not. Some powers, such as Energy Field, allow you to take another power, such as Engergy Blast, at the cost of an "extra". Meaning that it "bumps" the power cost of the base power, in this case Energy Field, up one point in cost. I read the FAQ and realize that the new power, Energy Blast, will be at the same Power Rank as Energy Field. However, am I eligible in taking any power stunts or extras located under Energy Blast? Or am I limited to just the generic Energy Blast? If I am eliglible to get the power stunts and extras, does this up the cost of Energy Field even more?

Thanks for any help...

 

[Emiricol]

If you can make it make sense, you can take any power as an extra of another power. Also, it isn't +1 point per extra - it's the cost of the new power -1 per rank for the extra.

Extras are at the power rank of the parent power; partial extras are whatever you want them to be, but less than the parent power.

Power Stunts cost +2pp (power points).

New powers can be taken as Power Stunts or as Extras by the way. Stunts are used *instead* of the parent power, whereas Extras *add to* the parent power. That's the simple way to remember. So an M16 would be Weapon (ranged) power, and the bayonette would generally be an Extra (Weapon: Melee) since you can stabbity and fire at once, while the grenade launcher would be Stunt: Area Blast. For example. There's other ways to model it, but that's one way.

 

[Samurai]

You can take any power as an extra or stunt, the listed ones are just suggestions (Notice that Protonik has Super Senses as an Extra of Super-Strength). So yes, you can modify the Energy Blast. You should build the EB however you want and then apply the -1/rank decrease for being an Extra.

Note that most characters' powers will be built as just a string of Extras and stunts if you follow the rules in the book. I've created a house rule that greatly restricts the powers that qualify for the reduction as an Extra or Stunt. You may consider doing the same...

The actual rules in a nutshell:
Extra = any power of a different Effect Type
Stunt = Any power of the same Effect Type not usable at the same time

My rules:
Extra = Any power of the same Effect Type not usable at the same time
Stunt = Exact same power with different Extras and Flaws (still totaling the same or less as the base power), not usable at the same time

An example of a power stunt in my house rules would be a base power of Energy Blast, and a 2 PP stunt of Energy Blast (Extra: Area, Flaw: Slow).

In your example, EB and Energy Field are the same Effect Type (attack powers), so in the real rules, you could take Energy Blast as a Power Stunt if you can't use it at the same time (or an Extra if they can be used simultaneously). Under my house rule, it would be an Extra if it can't be used at the same time, or full price otherwise. (Note that MnM's 1st printing has a great deal of errata, and Energy Blast as an Extra of Energy Field is one of those (it should be a Stunt)... be sure to d/l it, as it is long and very significant to game play)

 

[RigaMortus2]

Not quite sure I am entirely following here, but let me give some examples and tell me if I am right or wrong...

Let's say I want to purchase 10 Ranks in your basic Energy Control (Cold). This would cost me 20pp (10 x cost of 2pp per rank), right?

Now let's say I wanted to purchase a the Power Stunt "Drain Energy" for Energy Control (Cold). This would cost me 2pp, for a grand total of 22pp, right?
So this would then allow me to use Energy Control (Cold) and drain a source of cold energy until the source is extinguished.
Do I get to choose when I use the Drain Energy power stunt, or is my Energy Control (Cold) now forever altered by this stunt? Therefore, anytime I use the power, I will be draining the source?

Let's go back for a moment and say I have your basic Energy Control (Cold). Instead, I wish to purchase the power stunt of "Energy Blast". This would cost me 2pp, or 22pp total (10 x 2 for the cost of Energy Control +2 pp from power stunt). Is this right so far?
What would my Power Rank be in Energy Blast if I purchased it this way? How do I increase it? Am I allowed to buy power stunts or extra's from Energy Blast if I bought it this way (if I bought it as a power stunt)?

What if I purchase 10 Power Ranks in Energy Field (Cold)? Again this should only cost me 20pp total. If I then purchase Energy Blast (Cold) as an extra, does this bump the cost up for Energy Field by 1? So it will cost me 30pp for a Power Rank 10, with the ability to project an Energy Field and fire off an Energy Blast? What would my Power Rank be in Energy Blast? Can I purchase a power stunt or extra under Energy Blast? Am I able to use both Energy Field (Cold) AND Energy Blast (Cold) at the same time?

What is more cost effective? To purchase Energy Control (Cold) and purchase Energy Blast (Cold) as a power stunt? OR to purchase Energy Field (Cold) and purchase Energy Blast (Cold) as an extra? What are the advantages and drawbacks of doing it each of these ways?

Sorry for all these questions, but I guess I am more confused with the rules than I thought I was. Just looking for clarity.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Not quite sure I am entirely following here, but let me give some examples and tell me if I am right or wrong...

Let's say I want to purchase 10 Ranks in your basic Energy Control (Cold). This would cost me 20pp (10 x cost of 2pp per rank), right?

Right

Now let's say I wanted to purchase a the Power Stunt "Drain Energy" for Energy Control (Cold). This would cost me 2pp, for a grand total of 22pp, right?

Right, and you would be able to use either of them in a round. Not both.

Do I get to choose when I use the Drain Energy power stunt, or is my Energy Control (Cold) now forever altered by this stunt? Therefore, anytime I use the power, I will be draining the source?

Nope. You can use it either/or...that's how stunts work.

To model using them both at the same time (say, a cold blast that drains Heat Energy) You would...

Buy Energy Blast: Cold (Base power) 2pp/level . +10 power =20pp

Add Drain as an extra (not a stunt) of the base power 2pp/lvl, -1pp/lvl as an extra. +10 Power =10pp

Add triggered as an extra on the Drain power (Trigger is Energy Blast being fired)=10pp

So total is 20+10+10pp=40 pp for an attack that requires a damage save to avoid Stun hits and a Fortitude Save to avoid Heat Energy being Drained away

Let's go back for a moment and say I have your basic Energy Control (Cold). Instead, I wish to purchase the power stunt of "Energy Blast". This would cost me 2pp, or 22pp total (10 x 2 for the cost of Energy Control +2 pp from power stunt). Is this right so far?

So far so good.

What would my Power Rank be in Energy Blast if I purchased it this way?

the same as the base power...in your example +10

How do I increase it? Am I allowed to buy power stunts or extra's from Energy Blast if I bought it this way (if I bought it as a power stunt)?

you can fiddle around with the "pp" represented in the Power Stunt as you like, but they can't total more than the base power at any time.

So say you had your cold blast +10, That's 20 pp, ame as the Cold Control base power. All good.

But suppose you wanted Area Effect on the Energy blast. To add that extra would be an extra 10pp, which would bring the total to 30pp...which is not allowed.

So you could add a flaw like Tiring or soemthin on it, Which with the -1pp level cost, would cancel out the extra cost incurred by the Area extra, and would bring it back down to 20pp.

Or you could Make the Cold Blast only +6 (12pp) with the area extra (+6pp_ which equals 18pp..spend the final two points adding Penetrating as a power stunt and you have an effective +8 Area Cold blast for 20pp...which icomes in under the cap of the Power Stunt.

What if I purchase 10 Power Ranks in Energy Field (Cold)? Again this should only cost me 20pp total.

And it does...

If I then purchase Energy Blast (Cold) as an extra, does this bump the cost up for Energy Field by 1?

It does, because Energy blast is a 2pp/lvl power, and that is reduced by 1 for it being an Extra

So it will cost me 30pp for a Power Rank 10, with the ability to project an Energy Field and fire off an Energy Blast?

Correct.

What would my Power Rank be in Energy Blast?

+10, same as the base power.

Can I purchase a power stunt or extra under Energy Blast? Am I able to use both Energy Field (Cold) AND Energy Blast (Cold) at the same time?

Yes, the Energy Field is a sustained power, triggered by a melee atack against you. It doesn't require an action on your part to "use" other than to activate and sustain it. The Energy Blast however, requires a half action.

What is more cost effective? To purchase Energy Control (Cold) and purchase Energy Blast (Cold) as a power stunt? OR to purchase Energy Field (Cold) and purchase Energy Blast (Cold) as an extra? What are the advantages and drawbacks of doing it each of these ways?

Well, they are entirely different power sets for one. Their effects are not similar.

The first one (Energy Control: Cold + Energy Blast Cold) will let you

• Fire off Energy Blasts
• Create "Ice Slicks" out of Ambient Moisture

The second (Energy Field + Energy Blast) will let you

• Inflict damamge on opponents as the hit you
• Fire off enegy blasts

The first costs 22pp, the second costs 30pp. The second has the potential for two damaging attacks (or more) per round.

You can't really compare them in terms of cost...you either want to create ice slicks or you don't.

Sorry for all these questions, but I guess I am more confused with the rules than I thought I was. Just looking for clarity.

No apologies necessary. It's a pretty tricky ruleset, and not particularly well explained in the Core Rulebook.

Take a gander over at www.mutantsandmasterminds.com and check the forums. Steve Kenson, the author of the game has a thread in the forum where he answers rule questions in a timely fashion.

 

[Samurai]

Well, 1 quibble here... You may only buy a power stunt if the power is the same effect type as the base power. Since Energy Control is a Control effect, you can't buy an Attack effect (Energy Blast) as a Stunt, it must be an Extra. However, Energy Field is an Attack Effect, so you could buy Energy Blast as a stunt off of that.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Well, 1 quibble here... You may only buy a power stunt if the power is the same effect type as the base power. Since Energy Control is a Control effect, you can't buy an Attack effect (Energy Blast) as a Stunt, it must be an Extra. However, Energy Field is an Attack Effect, so you could buy Energy Blast as a stunt off of that.

Nice save

In a perect world, I would agree with you as that's how the power creation system describes it, but for whatever reason Energy Control lists Energy Blast as an available power stunt.

 

[Samurai]

Nice save

In a perect world, I would agree with you as that's how the power creation system describes it, but for whatever reason Energy Control lists Energy Blast as an available power stunt.

Energy Control originally listed it as a Stunt because many of the ECs listed in the book are Attack Effects. In the Errata (the latest version, from April 04, also printed in the back of the MnM Annual pg 125), Energy Blast has been changed to an Extra, and the Energy Control power is now entirely a Control effect.

As I said above, there is quite a bit of errata for the 1st ed MnM, and if you go just by that book, the game will be very confusing, and full of contradictions and "special cases".

 

[takyris]

That's part of what I love about the system, though. If you want simple broad strokes, you take Energy Blast with the Dazzle extra. If you want to make the most complex and flexible thing out there, you can take Energy Blast with a partial Area extra, then add Shapeable, then Power Stunt the Energy Blast to a Dazzle/Stun 50/50 split and instead of Area/Shapeable, you add a partial Fatigue power to it, and then, with another Power Stunt, you take strike with...

and so on.

How has the Annual worked for people? I'm considering getting it, but I'm currently pretty happy with how things are working with the Errata and FAQ, so it's by no means a necessity for me.

Side question: Ran into a rules situation yesterday that I tried to handle fairly, but I wanted to check with folks.

Let's say you've got an attack power with the Dazzle extra. In order to force a save against the Dazzle aspect of the power, do you as GM rule that it has to damage (or force a damage save upon) the target?

Case For: Superman gets hit in the face by a laser. It does no real damage to him (his Protection soaks it), but it can still blind him for a moment. I'd have no problem with this flavor-text resulting in "Nope, roll against Dazzle whether or not you take damage."

Case Against: The Dashing Duelist has a Power Stunt on his rapier attack, wherein he aims a cut at his opponent's forehead to force his opponent to flinch, blink, and possibly take a cut that gets blood into his face. This turns his Weapon +10 attack into Weapon +3, Dazzle(Sight) +7 with the Power Stunt. In this case, while I wouldn't say that the Dazzle only occurs on scoring a hit, I would say that it only occurs if you at least force a Damage save (ie, overcome Protection/Armor/Force Field and make them flinch).

So I'm pretty much ruling it as a case-by-case deal. So far, my players have gone with the logical interpretation each time, admirably avoiding potential min-max attempts. I just wanted to see if other people used the same interpretation (case-by-case, as logic and reason dictate).

 

[RigaMortus2]

Thanks for the answers... I think I am slowly getting it. Will have to re-read them a few more times before it finally sticks in there...

I was under the impression that if you add an extra, it up's the base power's cost by 1. But from what you are saying, I should look at the cost for the extra and subtract 1 instead. Is that right?

This is important because if the base power has a cost of a 2, but an extra for that base power has a cost of 9... well 10 ranks in the base power will end up costing me 20pp but 10 ranks in the extra will cost me an additional 80... But wasn't there mention that I could only spend up to the max in pp that I spent on the base power? In which case i could only spend 16pp for a Rank 2 (for the extra that costs me 9pp... 9pp -1 for the extra = 8 x 2 (ranks) = 16pp)... Whew... Did I mess up anywhere in there?