Mutants & Masterminds: Question about power stunts and extra's

[Samurai]

A power stunt is limited to the cost of the base power, so if you took that 9 PP/rank power as a Stunt, it'd only be +2, as you figured out.

An Extra is the normal cost-1 (minimum 1/rank). So if you took that 9 PP/rank power as an Extra, you could buy as many ranks as you want (up to the rank of the base power, which is usually the max on an Extra) for 8 PP/rank instead of 9.

 

[Emiricol]

One house rule I've used just to keep things simple is that, unless there is a *very* compelling thematic reason not to, the base power has to be the most expensive power in the group, including powers added as Stunts. It's worked out pretty well so far, but ymmv of course.

Not sure which rule you are talking about though, Rigamortis. But it hasn't ever come up in my games due to the house rule.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Energy Control originally listed it as a Stunt because many of the ECs listed in the book are Attack Effects. In the Errata (the latest version, from April 04, also printed in the back of the MnM Annual pg 125), Energy Blast has been changed to an Extra, and the Energy Control power is now entirely a Control effect.

As I said above, there is quite a bit of errata for the 1st ed MnM, and if you go just by that book, the game will be very confusing, and full of contradictions and "special cases".

You are exactly correct. I just checked my M&M Annual, and it lists exactly as you claim.

I missed it becasue for some reason, evey other mention of a power in there was bolded except that one

I guess the Errata has some editng issues, and could use an errata

Luckily I hear the second printing of M&M (the one currently avaiable) incorporates the errata.

 

[Teflon Billy]

I was under the impression that if you add an extra, it up's the base power's cost by 1. But from what you are saying, I should look at the cost for the extra and subtract 1 instead. Is that right?

Well, the list of extras (Area, Subtle, Increased Duration and suchlike) all add 1pp/lvl to the cost.

Powers added as Extras to an existing power (the "Base Power") cost their regular cost minus 1. So if you wanted to add the Area extra to your Paralysis power (2pp/lvl) for example it's cost would go up to 3pp/lvl as you added an actual extra.

If instead of Area you wanted to add Growth (and this would take some explaining if you ask me, but It's jsut an example) which is 6pp/lvl, it's cost would go down to 5pp/lvl and be added to the cost of the paralysis for a grand total of 7pp/lvl.

You would have Growth at the same level as you purchased Paralysis.

This is important because if the base power has a cost of a 2, but an extra for that base power has a cost of 9... well 10 ranks in the base power will end up costing me 20pp but 10 ranks in the extra will cost me an additional 80...

Indeed

But wasn't there mention that I could only spend up to the max in pp that I spent on the base power? In which case i could only spend 16pp for a Rank 2 (for the extra that costs me 9pp... 9pp -1 for the extra = 8 x 2 (ranks) = 16pp)... Whew... Did I mess up anywhere in there?

In that situation you make the more expensive power the base, and add the less expensive as an extra.

Otherwise you start seeing a very common "point-grubber" build where the base power is 1pp/lvl (Armor, Amazing Save etc.) and the extras are 2pp/lvl (Most things) which get a -1pp lvl cost break for being extras...which in effect means the 1pp power is free.

 

[Teflon Billy]

One house rule I've used just to keep things simple is that, unless there is a *very* compelling thematic reason not to, the base power has to be the most expensive power in the group, including powers added as Stunts. It's worked out pretty well so far, but ymmv of course.

We use this, and don't allow any "compelling reasons" to step outside it.

Most expensive power=base power.

Period

 

[Emiricol]

We use this, and don't allow any "compelling reasons" to step outside it.

Most expensive power=base power.

Period

As DM I get to decide what I find compelling, so yeah, works for me.

 

[takyris]

Hm... I'm not sure that I agree, but we might be thinking of it from different angles.

I had a character make a whip, and I was fine with it being Weapon +1 with Trip (Reflex save or be prone) +4 as an addition. For us, it worked like:

Weapon: 1 rank
-Extra: Trip: +1 x 4 ranks = +4

Total: 5

Power Stunt: Snare +5

New Total: 7

In my mind, the Weapon is still the primary power, even though it has the fewest ranks. But maybe we're coming at it from different angles.

 

[Teflon Billy]

...In my mind, the Weapon is still the primary power, even though it has the fewest ranks. But maybe we're coming at it from different angles.

Definitely a different angle. What I meant by "most Expensive power" was "highest cost in pp/lvl" not "Highest total PP".

See, if you allow lower pp/lvl powers to be the base power you get this kind of thing.

Amazing Save: Damage +5 (5pp)
Extra: Energy Blast +5 (Normally 10pp, but with the fact that it's an extra, it is now 5pp)

Total=10pp

Which is the same cost as Energy Blast +5 alone...10pp.

So allowing the lower Cost (meaning pp/lvl) to be the base power allows people to in effect get free powers.

Not on my watch


:\

 

[Teflon Billy]

I had a character make a whip, and I was fine with it being Weapon +1 with Trip (Reflex save or be prone) +4 as an addition. For us, it worked like:

Weapon: 1 rank
-Extra: Trip: +1 x 4 ranks = +4

Total: 5

Power Stunt: Snare +5

New Total: 7

The reason I'd be fine with your Whip example is this: No cost savings.

Since the minimum cost/lvl is 1, and your "Trip" power (what is that anyway? Flawed Basic Attack Bonus?) isn't lowered (I can't think it would be more than 1 pp/lvl) the cost in this case comes out the saem no matter which is the base power.

If trip were a 2pp/lvl power I would have a problem with it.

 

[The Grackle]

Trip? Power bonus= ranks in opposed Str check for trips?
A +4 bonus in an uncommon die roll. That could be a feat instead.


Wait, I totally missed it. "Reflex save or be prone." Sounds like a legit power to me. Kinda weak since it's already a normal combat maneuver, but this power would be better for knocking over high STR bricks who would be otherwise untrippable.
I'd add on extended reach as a power stunt.

and can you use it with improved trip???
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RigaMortus,
Don't feel bad. MnM should really have more explanations on how power creation works, and better examples, b/c it confuses ALOT of people. I'd say half the questions on the Atomic Think Tank are about how to do extras and stunts.