MV: Threats to the Nentir Vale in my hands

[Matt James]

Yay, I'm glad you like Mr. M (the Treant)

The entire Treant section was awesome to work on with one of the other designers--one that I am very close with. I hope you like the storyline behind it all and the comparison/contrast within.

 

[Colmarr]

Rust monsters are actually obscenely brutal to PCs

"Nature check + a day off + Enchant Item ritual = New Items (which are possibly better-tailored to the party than the old ones were)" is not my idea of brutal.

Rust monsters can stop a PC excursion in their tracks by forcing a retreat, but they're nowhere near as final as they used to be.

Stuff

So you maintain that 5 recent monsters (Perytons, Jackalweres, the fellcourt whatever-it's-called and Calastryx), all of which are exceedingly lethal and one of which is specifically designed to kill unconcious PCs, aren't reflective of a change in design?

Must just be me then.

 

[Aegeri]

So you maintain that 5 recent monsters (Perytons, Jackalweres, the fellcourt whatever-it's-called and Calastryx), all of which are exceedingly lethal

Jackalweres are from MM3 actually, not from either Monster Vault product. Also that's only four monsters. For things pre-MM3:

Azure Ooze (Dungeon, published around the time that MM1 was around) is absurdly powerful for its level and has a devastating attachment attack. This ensures any PC hitting the character the ooze is attached to takes 1/2 the damage from their attacks. It's also level 7. Plus packed an immense wollop for its time. Now it's just chilling (see what I did there) with most of the newer monsters rather happily.

Storm Shard (MM2) - has a severely punishing "Must move more than 4 squares, or take 3d6+6 lightning damage at-will attack". This is on top of the 1d6+4 (IIRC) damage the power does initially. So that's a level 4 artillery with an at will potential of 4d6+10 damage. Also packs an aura. Combine with allies that immobilize for kittens to be spawned from your PCs all over the table. Incidentally, it's level 4 and if you get knocked unconscious under its effect and the leader can't get to you, you die! Did I mention it's from Monster Manual 2? I didn't? Well consider that mentioned.

Tiamat who just needs new damage expressions and action recovery so is probably one of the strongest 4E solos. Nothing wrong with her and pound for pound, she can take Calastryx any day.

Any creature that triggers damage off knocking an enemy prone (EG unconscious): For example animated statues (from games day 2008).

Heroslayer Hydra (MM2), who only needs current damage expressions and becomes extremely effective (minding without them is curiously entirely useless, quite the difference!).

Corruption Corpse: Aura 1 -5 to all attacks penalty, explodes on death AND is artillery so reasonable accurate with its pelts of necrotic flesh. Was directly responsible for my first ever TPK along with Otyughs.

I could go on, but the short of it is that you haven't paid much attention to monsters if you think some being very lethal is new

"Nature check + a day off + Enchant Item ritual = New Items (which are possibly better-tailored to the party than the old ones were)" is not my idea of brutal.

Except you can't make rare or uncommon items anymore by the new rarity rules (which I do use). So if your rare sword gets eaten and your DM follows those rules, well that's not a rare sword anymore. Enjoy making your common

Edit: Ghoul (MM), which gain damage considerable bonuses from targeting unconscious characters (Ghoul bite does specifically state unconscious enemies as a target). Killed more than a few PCs with them actually. They were also notable for being ahead of the usual MM damage curve too.

Bloodfire Harpy (MM): Aura 20, 5 fire damage aura. Combine with Beholder Eye of Flame, which has a fire vulnerability aura for hilarious time. Harpies are basically broken in any amount over 2 with the new damage stacking rules (combined with how mobile they are and their other powers).

Dust Devil (MM2): Has an absurd 3d6+3 burst 3 attack and blinds until the end of the creatures next turn. If you recall to the Dark Sun Encounters season, it wasn't a dark sun monster that broke the back of many parties: It was the humble MM2 Dust Devil. Mostly because there were two of them.

I could carry on if you like. I can actually think of a fair few more creatures pre-MV and even pre-MM3 that are extremely lethal.

 

[Colmarr]

How are people supposed to reply if you keep editting your post?

You yourself have commented on the lethality of at least 2 of the monsters excerpted from MV:NV (the fellcourt whatsit and Calastryx).

Another has an attack that specifically kills unconscious PCs. Not "is best suited to killing unconscious PCs" like the Jackalwere Bravo, but can only be used for and automatically (if it hits) kills the PC regardless of damage resistance or hit points.

If nothing else, I believe that the fact that this mechanic or something like it was not published until now is pretty demonstrative.

But ce la vie. I'll sit in my corner lamenting the fact that the designers are now more willing to kill PCs, and you can be equally convinced that they always were.

 

[Aegeri]

You yourself have commented on the lethality of at least 2 of the monsters excerpted from MV:NV (the fellcourt whatsit and Calastryx).

Calastryx is impressive because it's a very well designed paragon solo. It's exactly what solos in paragon should be. The fell court lurker is in the same bag as some previous creatures like Dust Devil, Jackalwere and Storm Shard. They are just too low level for their mechanics (especially if the DM uses multiples of them, which is where they become really problematic).

kills the PC regardless of damage resistance or hit points.

At this point, hit points and DR are pretty irrelevant at level 4 and 6. If you are dying then you're probably only ever 1 attack away from a coup de grace. Given that Perytons attack twice and being unconscious is an ungodly +7 bonus (-5 from unconscious and +2 from CA) it's a forgone conclusion. So might as well make it a more fluffy and interesting power.

If nothing else, I believe that the fact that this mechanic or something like it was not published until now is pretty demonstrative.

Obviously you never read the original MM.

Perhaps you should check out the Aboleth Overseer and then turn your attention to the Mind Flayer (also, coincidentally in the original MM).

Then feel free to correct your statement

 

[Saagael]

Perhaps you should check out the Aboleth Overseer and then turn your attention to the Mind Flayer (also, coincidentally in the original MM).

I was going to mention the Mind Flayers; they account for my first 4e player death because the players thought "it's 4e, nothing'll kill us in a few hits." Nasty bit of work, them Illithids are.

 

[Drammattex]

One is a generic outdoor wooded area with some hills and rocks.

This one was mine. I'll admit--I'm a sucker for the more generic type maps (like the King's Road map, which I use constantly). That said, as I recall it's deceptively strategic. (I miss you, DDM!).

 

[Erren]

This one was mine. I'll admit--I'm a sucker for the more generic type maps (like the King's Road map, which I use constantly). That said, as I recall it's deceptively strategic. (I miss you, DDM!).

No argument here. It's almost certainly the one I'll end up reusing the most (how often do I really need a town hall?). Also agree about DDM - I haven't even broken the plastic on the tokens that came with this, though I do see there's at least one more enorminator, which I've used to turn a large volcanic dragon mini into a huge one (want more catastrophic dragon minis, please make them again WotC).

 

[the Jester]

This one was mine. I'll admit--I'm a sucker for the more generic type maps (like the King's Road map, which I use constantly). That said, as I recall it's deceptively strategic. (I miss you, DDM!).

I can't wait to see this. Generic battlemaps are teh win; too specific and they're one-use visual aids that are awesome- once.

 

[keterys]

Nentir Vale is a distinctly heroic location, so it's not too surprising that the monsters are clustered into that tier.

It's an interesting decision to have solo brutes keep their extra hit points. That means that in comparison to other solos, they gain significant hit points and damage, and only lose 2 AC, which is hardly a notable thing at all. I'm good with the concept that roles matter for solos (though I'd actually be just as fine with solos having no role at all), but I'm very dubious of a core design that favors certain roles so much.