D&D 4E My 4e problem.

[RyvenCedrylle]

Mr. Morris-

My apologies to you if I came across (and continue to below) as snarky or elitist. The downside to internet forum posting, of course, is that there is no body language or voice intonation to provide proper context. My point is simply that it seems you are introducing so many new powers and feats that the game is more "Michael Morris" and less "WotC." Now that's not a bad thing - heck, I played a homebrew classless OGL variant that I found decidedly better than canon 3E, but because it was so.. diluted, maybe is the right word?.. it felt wrong to call it 3E. Maybe it's just semantics.

I liked some of the time-based powers you just posted, but am a little confused to some of the functioning. Please assume the statements to be honest and inquisitive as that is the intention.

Standstill has some definite potential so long as there's the option to not rejoin battle. That's a GM improv issue though, as opposed to a design issue. I assume it's intended to convert combat to roleplaying or skill challenges as opposed to simply 'end all ongoing conditions?' If it's the latter, "end all ongoing conditions and reroll initiative" is a heck of a lot easier to follow mechanically.

Temporal shift: So this is like the old 'Sanctuary' spell, I take it? I was a huge fan of Sanctuary in earlier editions, but as a player looking at this quickly as a power option, I'm not sure if I would take it. With Sanctuary, you can heal, move and do a bunch of other things while in the protective bubble. Here, I miss 1d6 turns (essentially) and then show up in almost exactly the same space and condition. I'm not sure what I would do with this unless the battle was almost over and I just needed to get out and save my hide while other folks clean up the mess. Now, if you have the option to spend a healing surge or two while you're telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up, that's a totally different animal. I'd use that any day of the week and twice on Tuesdays.

Time Warp - hmm.. I'm conflicted. This is REALLY swingy - everyone will probably go nova at this point to maximize the amount of carnage with their best dailies and so the battle is really going to rely heavily on a small number of rolls. That being said, it's level 28 and by that point, stuff like this ought to be happening. This is epic tier and you should be able to epic fail. I'd probably never use it myself, but I can think of some friends who would LOVE that power.

Temporal Pulse - retains economy of actions and does something unique. Beautiful.

 

[Michael Morris]

Mr. Morris-

My apologies to you if I came across (and continue to below) as snarky or elitist. The downside to internet forum posting, of course, is that there is no body language or voice intonation to provide proper context. My point is simply that it seems you are introducing so many new powers and feats that the game is more "Michael Morris" and less "WotC." Now that's not a bad thing - heck, I played a homebrew classless OGL variant that I found decidedly better than canon 3E, but because it was so.. diluted, maybe is the right word?.. it felt wrong to call it 3E. Maybe it's just semantics.

No need to apologize. I can be quite brutish at times unfortunately for, like most programmer types, social skills aren't my forte. There's a reason Piratecat never let me moderate in all the time I was an admin.

I can understand the feeling about the schism, but I am trying to pull the game to my setting if for no other reason than I feel 4e has lost some verisimilitude. Forgotten Realms was trashed utterly, I hold no hope for Eberron to keep its identity and the default world is at once more cohesive and less cohesive than in any prior edition. I don't want my setting to lose what makes it feel different from default D&D - but I still want someone to be able to play default D&D materials in the world.

For example, my world has no native dragonborn or tieflings. If a player really wants to play one they could end up in Carthasana via a portal, but they would be unique (and likely very alone) in the world. Mechanically though they would fit in.

I liked some of the time-based powers you just posted, but am a little confused to some of the functioning. Please assume the statements to be honest and inquisitive as that is the intention.

Standstill has some definite potential so long as there's the option to not rejoin battle. That's a GM improv issue though, as opposed to a design issue. I assume it's intended to convert combat to roleplaying or skill challenges as opposed to simply 'end all ongoing conditions?' If it's the latter, "end all ongoing conditions and reroll initiative" is a heck of a lot easier to follow mechanically.

The magic card "Time Stop" is the inspiration for this -- "End the turn." has a lot of repurcussions in that game. In 4e "End the encounter" has a lot of repurcussions even under the current rules, and there may be future classes or powers that the wording would affect. Hence the statement of the effect and they in parenthesis a reminder of what that effect means to the game.

The spell itself is pretty scary since it's a global status dispel without a caster level check. Only Time Spiral is scarier, but I'm not sure if I *can* translate that effect into 4e at any level -- in brief Time Spiral returns all creatures in the encounter to their status at the beginning of the encounter - even going so far as to raise the dead. It's balance in 3e was its high XP cost of 5000 XP, the same as a CR 17+ encounter. I don't know if it can balance in 4e at all.

Temporal shift: So this is like the old 'Sanctuary' spell, I take it? I was a huge fan of Sanctuary in earlier editions, but as a player looking at this quickly as a power option, I'm not sure if I would take it. With Sanctuary, you can heal, move and do a bunch of other things while in the protective bubble. Here, I miss 1d6 turns (essentially) and then show up in almost exactly the same space and condition. I'm not sure what I would do with this unless the battle was almost over and I just needed to get out and save my hide while other folks clean up the mess. Now, if you have the option to spend a healing surge or two while you're telling the laws of physics to sit down and shut up, that's a totally different animal. I'd use that any day of the week and twice on Tuesdays.

This is one of those puzzle powers I mentioned earlier. I'm not exactly sure how this can be used. Given the points you bring up I'm even less sure of it's level assignment now.

Time Warp - hmm.. I'm conflicted. This is REALLY swingy - everyone will probably go nova at this point to maximize the amount of carnage with their best dailies and so the battle is really going to rely heavily on a small number of rolls. That being said, it's level 28 and by that point, stuff like this ought to be happening. This is epic tier and you should be able to epic fail. I'd probably never use it myself, but I can think of some friends who would LOVE that power.

I've seen this in play in 3e - the trick is to use other Balcran spells or simple held actions to line up the parties' attacks into one massive assault. And I've had clever NPC's get the party back

Temporal Pulse - retains economy of actions and does something unique. Beautiful.

Originally named Quick - Temporal Pulse is a prettier name but also the original spell was my broken character litmus test. If using Temporal Pulse over and over on a given ally is more attractive than personally acting it's an indication that your character is too weak or the character you're targetting is too powerful.

Another note, this power WILL break up if the party members are different levels. A 3rd level blue mage can get a lot of mileage by hitting a 7th level anything with this spell. This happens more often with NPC's in my own games - Imagine a high level wizard with multiple apprentices packing this spell. The 3e version states that a given character can only benefit from this spell once per round - and it may be worth adding to this 4e power that a given character can only be affected by this power once per encounter to stop the potential abuse.

 

[Michael Morris]

Let's now move away from Blue over to Red - the "I really want to knock the crap out of you color."

Fanning the Flames
Shunra Utility 6

You chant ancient words of power causing the temperature to rise uncomfortably. The kindling is set, now for the spark!

Daily + Planar, Fire
Effect: Fire powers deal 5 more damage.


Flaring Pain
Shunra Utility 16

Daily + Planar, Conjuration
Area: 10 square radius from you.
Effect: All healing effects are halved.


Rolling Thunder
Shunra Attack 5

You strike your fist or implement into the ground creative a shockwave of flame that lashes out to engulf foes though you are unharmed.

Daily + Planar, Fire, Implement
Close Burst 5
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d8 + Intelligence modifier damage. On critical hit target knocked prone instead of extra damage.
Miss: Half Damage


Parch
Shunra Attack 1

You unleash a ruby ray that lashes out and dries up all moisture in the target.

Encounter + Planar, Fire, Implement
Range: 10
Target: One Creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 2d10+ Intelligence modifier fire damage.
Note: A Balcra aligned character will be dealt an additional 1d10 damage by this attack.

 

[The_Warlock]

Ok, I don't have the brainspace to make effective power by power commentary at the moment, however, I did want to say...

Absolutely, fundamentally, COOL.

Highly different playstyles represented with a world integrated mechanic...love it.


This would probably make me bother to play 4E.

When I'm not running on fumes I'll be back and see if I have anything to add. If not, I'll at least be reading what you are posting, because I find it very interesting, even as I try to parse relative value and balance issues.


Felt the need to say that at least.

 

[Greg K]

goodbye, good riddance. Passive aggressive trolling like this has driven away a lot of members, and the fewer people like you around the better.

qft

 

[Greg K]

The 15 minute adventuring day issues of 3e is related to the ability to take effects intended by the game designer to be spaced out across several fights and concentrate them into one fight, as compared to other classes which have no such ability, resulting in one class having greater power levels in a single fight and then negating the downside of reduced power later by finding creative ways to rest. If you don't understand that, you probably shouldn't homebrew.

And, maybe, you should stop assuming that everybody plays the same as you. The 15 minute adventuring day is not something every group experiences.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The 15 minute adventuring day issues of 3e is related to the ability to take effects intended by the game designer to be spaced out across several fights and concentrate them into one fight, as compared to other classes which have no such ability, resulting in one class having greater power levels in a single fight and then negating the downside of reduced power later by finding creative ways to rest. If you don't understand that, you probably shouldn't homebrew.

If you can't be polite, you shouldn't be posting in this thread. I'll give you a hand there. Threadbanned.

 

[Michael Morris]

Moving on. Green magi are to do the defender role. Defender of nature and all that, but it's also an interesting role focus to distinguish from the druid who is the primal controller class. But a primary spellcaster that can effectively get in close and wallop, there's a puzzle...

I think the way to do this is let green have a *lot* of summons (ironically just like the card game). The green mage doesn't so much personally defend the party as summon in beasties to do it.

Thoughts?

 

[Greg K]

Michael,
I wish I could help you, because I really find what you are doing interesting just as I did when you presented the setting before. Currently, though, I don't run or play 4e having chosen to stay with 3e. Yet, it is threads like this that have me keeping a watchful eye upon the 4e boards and open to the possibility of switching at some point in the future.

 

[The_Warlock]

Moving on. Green magi are to do the defender role. Defender of nature and all that, but it's also an interesting role focus to distinguish from the druid who is the primal controller class. But a primary spellcaster that can effectively get in close and wallop, there's a puzzle...

I think the way to do this is let green have a *lot* of summons (ironically just like the card game). The green mage doesn't so much personally defend the party as summon in beasties to do it.

Thoughts?

That said, tones of Tenser's Transformation from Prior Editions comes to mind.

If it were me, I would look up the Tenser spells from the old Greyhawk Adventures hardbound for inspiration.

Nature Themed powers that give a certain number of rounds of Enhanced Defense, or melee nature powers with a "Brutal" component giving them a minimum damage, or powers which give temp hit points only to the mage.

Then mix them with some summons so that they can have helpful flankers. Another thought would be that the Green Magi's summoned creatures are "defenders" in the sense that the Mark a target, so that it and the Green Mage can melee an enemy, but most enemies will focus on the summoned creature, "effectively" increasing the Green Magi's defense/hit points by reducing his likelihood of being targeted.

Going too focused on summons I think will keep the Green Mage OUT of the front line, which doesn't sound like something you want (based on the "wallop" concept).

Perhaps an encounter power called "Relentless Revival" which allows the Green Mage to heal himself from unconsciousness but only if he was in melee when he was KO'd.

I'm now going back in this thread and re-reading some stuff, but figured an unenlightened brainstorm post might be useful.