D&D General My (altered) Dawn War Pantheon

[Aldarc]

BUT if I was going to go with a consolidated D&D greatest hits gods, I would without hesitation use what you have developed here.

Impressive....

This is great - thank you for sharing! I agree with some others on this board that this is an improvement on the base 4e Dawn War pantheon (which I already like a lot). Nice job!

Thank you both! That's actually incredibly encouraging to hear.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Very nice work! My changes to the DW pantheon involved the addition of three demihuman gods that I felt should have been in there since they made Moradin, Correlon, Bahamut, Tiamat, and Gruumsh as universal gods for all races, not just the specific races they originally came from.

Yondalla is the goddess of the home, hearth, and community.

Garl is the god of revelry, humor, and trickery.

Magubliyet has taken the place of Bane, as the god of war, tactics, and authority. (Figured the hobgoblin deity was a better war deity than the Realms transplant).

 

[dave2008]

Very nice work! My changes to the DW pantheon involved the addition of three demihuman gods that I felt should have been in there since they made Moradin, Correlon, Bahamut, Tiamat, and Gruumsh as universal gods for all races, not just the specific races they originally came from.

Yondalla is the goddess of the home, hearth, and community.

Garl is the god of revelry, humor, and trickery.

Magubliyet has taken the place of Bane, as the god of war, tactics, and authority. (Figured the hobgoblin deity was a better war deity than the Realms transplant).

i like the addition of Yondalla and Mr. Glittergold, but I am fine with Magubliyet remaining an exarch of Bane, I just liked Bane's backstory in 4e more.

 

[Aldarc]

Very nice work! My changes to the DW pantheon involved the addition of three demihuman gods that I felt should have been in there since they made Moradin, Correlon, Bahamut, Tiamat, and Gruumsh as universal gods for all races, not just the specific races they originally came from.

Yondalla is the goddess of the home, hearth, and community.

Garl is the god of revelry, humor, and trickery.

Magubliyet has taken the place of Bane, as the god of war, tactics, and authority. (Figured the hobgoblin deity was a better war deity than the Realms transplant).

These are some nice changes too, and they definitely give me something worth considering.

In the Dawn War pantheon, Garl is a bit redundant with Corellon, Sehanine, and Avandra all occupying similar niches. So if I included him, it would either be as an aspect of Corellon - one of his many forms - or as a powerful archfey, possibly as an exarch of Corellon or Sehanine.

There is probably a stronger case for including Yondalla, but a lot of that is presently taken by Moradin. Hmmmm... Moradin could become more of a Hephaestus deity, focused on creation, labor, and artifice. This would free up hearth and home for Yondalla. Then there is the question of where to place her in the various lineages of the pantheons. On the one hand, having her connected to Melora and Moradin would work because of the myth about the hearth being an ember of Melora's heart. However, having her as the child of Pelor and Erathis would also potentially work, as that could represent the commonality of family and hearths with agriculture and cities, and the hearth may even be the light of the sun gifted to the cities of Erathis. I'll have to chew on this.

 

[SkidAce]

Flesh it out and publish it on DM'S Guild. I'd likely buy it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

These are some nice changes too, and they definitely give me something worth considering.

In the Dawn War pantheon, Garl is a bit redundant with Corellon, Sehanine, and Avandra all occupying similar niches. So if I included him, it would either be as an aspect of Corellon - one of his many forms - or as a powerful archfey, possibly as an exarch of Corellon or Sehanine.

There is probably a stronger case for including Yondalla, but a lot of that is presently taken by Moradin. Hmmmm... Moradin could become more of a Hephaestus deity, focused on creation, labor, and artifice. This would free up hearth and home for Yondalla. Then there is the question of where to place her in the various lineages of the pantheons. On the one hand, having her connected to Melora and Moradin would work because of the myth about the hearth being an ember of Melora's heart. However, having her as the child of Pelor and Erathis would also potentially work, as that could represent the commonality of family and hearths with agriculture and cities, and the hearth may even be the light of the sun gifted to the cities of Erathis. I'll have to chew on this.

As a frequent gnome player, I’d hate to see Garl included at all if it’s as an exarch or aspect of Corellon, but that aside, something to consider:

If your pantheon is meant to be a family tree, and to evoke the sorts of relationships that real world polytheistic pantheons have, overlapping and even “redundant” deities are a benefit, not a drawback.

There should be several gods that that deal with magic, and luck, and fertility, and love, and violence, and travel, and death, but who deal with them in different ways, with different focuses, and with different combinations of “domains”. And there doesn’t even need to be an actual hierarchy between them just because you have 3 gods of magic, or whatever.

But some ideas for old Garl that might help set him apart from Corellon, and make his inclusion do him justice.

Trickery as a retributive act, rather than purely for kicks. A plucky fun loving trickster isn’t the same as a trickster who brings low the unjust mighty.

Gnomes are smarter than elves. Maybe Garl is smarter than Corellon, and thus is a god of deep lore, discovery, inventive inspiration, while Corellon is a god of artistic expression, magic, etc.

Garl is a god with many stories, and in some worlds created gnomes by finding gemstones and telling them a joke. Is there a god of travelers and storytellers?

Garl or Corellon could be be a bit darker than usual, and borrow from IRL Odin, in that Odin is the source of poetic inspiration AND battle fury. Corellon already takes many guises, so he isn’t that far from Odin in many ways. And his son leads the wild hunt!

As to the Raven Queen, I like your take more than the 5e canon take. It’s still more antagonistic than she was before, and I really liked having a fairly helpful if enigmatic neutral deity of death, but it’s very interesting.

Why not flesh that out a bit bit more by adding the Red Witch and The Lady of The White Well from 4e as her sisters, borrow from Nemain and Macha to flesh them out as “Unseelie” without necessarily being “evil”, and have fun with the idea of them being goddesses whose names are taboo, etc.

 

[Aldarc]

As a frequent gnome player, I’d hate to see Garl included at all if it’s as an exarch or aspect of Corellon, but that aside, something to consider:

I also find that Garl Glittergold is a silly name, and I will admit that is also a hurdle for me to overcome when it pertains to including him, but there are some more substantial hurdles as well.

There should be several gods that that deal with magic, and luck, and fertility, and love, and violence, and travel, and death, but who deal with them in different ways, with different focuses, and with different combinations of “domains”. And there doesn’t even need to be an actual hierarchy between them just because you have 3 gods of magic, or whatever.

But some ideas for old Garl that might help set him apart from Corellon, and make his inclusion do him justice.

Some overlap is fine, but too much and then things become suffocating. Right now there is already a healthy handful of available trickery gods already and what gnomes are known for is covered by other deities.

Sehanine is the Dawn War deity of trickery and illusion, which are the gnomes' two big things right there. Corellon and Avandra are also both trickster deities. There is also a "dead" trickster god in 4e lore - Laeris - who was a god of trickery and deceit before being killed by Vecna. Avandra is also the goddess of travel, and I already see Ioun as the goddess of "deep lore." Corellon, Sehanine, and Ioun are deities of magic.

Everywhere I look, Garl is fighting for cramp space on all sides. I looked through 4e Nentir Vale lore. Garl Glittergold doesn't get a mention anywhere. Nor could I find any mention of gnomes having a favored deity in 4e lore.

Gnomes in 4e are fey creatures of the Feywild, and that would suggest Corellon as their patron. Garl Glittergold could be a child of Corellon and Sehanine, a minor fey god born from Corellon's magic and Sehanine's penchant for trickery and illusions. Then he would basically just be Pan or Puck. And this would again relegate him to a minor role because the problem of finding a niche still exists. (Something of a persistent problem with gnomes throughout editions.)

Overall, even with your suggestions, I don't think that Garl Glittergold has much of a potential place in the Dawn War pantheon. I don't want to find a role for a deity just to make a role for them. It's also not my responsibility to include every racial deity into this pantheon. One big reason for that is because deities aren't strictly tied to species. Barbarian tribes of humans, orcs, hill dwarves, or stout halflings may say prayers to Gruumsh. Wood elves may not feel that close to Corellon, possibly holding Melora and Sehanine in higher regard.

Why not flesh that out a bit bit more by adding the Red Witch and The Lady of The White Well from 4e as her sisters, borrow from Nemain and Macha to flesh them out as “Unseelie” without necessarily being “evil”, and have fun with the idea of them being goddesses whose names are taboo, etc.

Because adding too many superfluous deities defeats one of the major strengths of using the Dawn War pantheon. I already feel guilty for adding two (e.g., Astara, Kerun), which I justify by the fact that I combined Lloth and the Raven Queen and then dumped Vecna's divinity. I added Pholtus and Lendor, but they are both dead deities, with Pholtus simply being the name of "He Who Was," and Lendor as the father of Ioun and Tharizdun.

Flesh it out and publish it on DM'S Guild. I'd likely buy it.

I appreciate the endorsement, but if I flesh it out, then I would post it here for free.

 

[DEFCON 1]

To be fair, in order to add Yondalla and Garl (No Glittergold, just Garl), I removed Avandra from mine. The travel and commerce went to Erathis the luck went to Yondalla, and the trickery went to Garl.

I personally wanted my primary races to have their "patron" deity available to them (even though everybody worships all the gods). And the human's patron deity is Erathis. So Avandra did not fit as well in my rework. I had no issue in removing her.

But as you are making the pantheon a family tree, you absolutely have more to consider when adding or subtracting, so not using Garl is certainly understandable.

 

[Aldarc]

To be fair, in order to add Yondalla and Garl (No Glittergold, just Garl), I removed Avandra from mine. The travel and commerce went to Erathis the luck went to Yondalla, and the trickery went to Garl.

That's useful to know.

I personally wanted my primary races to have their "patron" deity available to them (even though everybody worships all the gods). And the human's patron deity is Erathis. So Avandra did not fit as well in my rework. I had no issue in removing her.

And in contrast my version of the pantheon is less concerned about racial patron deities, because I also wanted to emphasize culture > race. The popular gods of the Vale, for example, will likely be a mix of the most prominent gods favored by the Nerath Empire (e.g., Erathis, Bane, Pelor, etc.) and the surrounding barbarian tribes (e.g., Kord, Melora, etc.) that they began conquering. Meanwhile the mountain dwarves of the Mithralfast Mountains will venerate a different set than the hill dwarves of the Vale.

But as you are making the pantheon a family tree, you absolutely have more to consider when adding or subtracting, so not using Garl is certainly understandable.

Making Garl a god similar to Bacchus/Dionysus could work, which would certainly build off your idea of making Garl a god of humor and revelry. (And yes, removing 'Glittergold' from the name makes him sound less silly.) Then throw in a wine-making and a tradition of gnomish wine for good measure. Avandra can still basically be Hermes while Yondalla be Hestia.

 

[gabymarief111]

The alteration are great, but the thing that gets me confuse is that Sehanine is generally the goddess of dreams. Astara and Sehanine are very similar deities since they are night time deities , I do understand that they are mother and daughter. Is any unique differences between them. Can you explain Sehanine's duty as the goddess of love?