My Arcane Trickster 2.0

[Kenmis]

Hey everyone,

Ok, after thinking things through and consulting a few friends reguarding game balance and whatnot, here's what i came up with for the new Arcane Trickster. Tell me what you all think:

Arcane Trickster Mk II

Hit Die: D6
Skills per level: 4
Class Skills: all Rogue and Wizard class skills
BAB: as Rogue
Good Saves: Will and Ref
Arcane Spell Failure: none for light or medium armor
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: None
Sneak attack: every 3 levels
Spell Progression: ½ Spell Progression.

Keep the Ranged Legerdemain progression

Extraordinary Ability: Stealth Casting. Once per day, the Arcane Trickster my chose to ignore verbal and somatic components of any spell he casts. This does not affect casting time, and the caster still provokes attacks of opportunity. A concentration check is still necessary if the caster takes damage.

Other spellcasters may make a spellcraft check to determine that the Trickster is casting a spell, but it is not possible shy of Read Thoughts to determine the spell being cast. If the caster can read the Trickster’s mind, standard Knowledge: Arcana or Spellcraft checks apply to determine which spell.

Extraordinary Ability: Extended Casting. A number of times per day equal to the Arcane Trickster’s charisma modifier they may attempt a Use Magic Device to cast a spell without using up that spell slot. The DC to do so is 15 + spell level.

Class Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1 0 0 2 2 +1 Caster Level, Ranged Ledgermain 1/day
2 1 0 3 3 Extended Casting
3 2 1 3 3 +3d6 Sneak Attack, +1 Caster Level
4 3 1 4 4 Stealth Casting 1/day
5 4 1 4 4 +1 Caster Level, Ranged Ledgermain 2/day
6 5 2 5 5 +4d6 Sneak Attack
7 6 2 5 5 +1 Caster Level, Stealth Casting 2/day
8 7 2 6 6 Ranged Ledgermain 3/day
9 8 3 6 6 +5d6 Sneak Attack Damage, +1 Caster Level
10 9 3 7 7 Stealth Casting 3/day

I'm not sure if that table is going to work out at all, if not i'll try to post it again using some othe rmethod.

What do you guys think?

 

[Technik4]

I would:

-give sneak or spellcasting every level, starting with spellcasting.

-reduce arcane spell failure to 0 in light armor only. Shields still incurring spell failure.

-extended casting is unnecessary and possibly overpowered.

-stealth casting is also sort of redundant (as most rog/wiz or rog/sor take still and silent spell anyway).

Did you find Imprmptu Sneak Attack overpowered? The only real changes I see are altering spellcasting, sneak, attack, and getting rid of impromptu sneak attack, as well adding the 3.5 bard's expected reduction of arcane spell failure.

Technik

 

[Kenmis]

Improptu et. al

Ok, i'll try to address the philisophies of my class and your issues.

1) i'm not a big fan of giving prestige classes spell progression if they give the charactor ANYTHING else. Spell pregression is a rare and powerfull thing, and i firmly believe that in order to have the power of a 20th level wizard, you need to be, well, a 20th level wizard.

This is also why i toned down the sneak attack damage. if you wanna be a rogue, great, be a rogue. if you want to do anything else, your rogish-ness is going to have to take a hit. i do not beleive prestige classes should simply be "take the best things of two classes and throw them togeather" This, unfortunatly, is what a lot of the splat book PrC's are. Take a look at the DMG PrC's and how they differ, and you'll see what i'm getting at.

So instead, i tried to give the trickster special abuilities that would be usefull, and in line to the philosiphy of the charactor. Originaly i did have them getting the Still and Silent spell feats as the levels progressed, but i took them out one main reason: they suck. Honestly, i don't know anyone who actualy uses most metamagic feats, especialy in combat. They simply are not usefull. On top of that, they're even worse for spontanious caster. Stealth casting however, is usefull, and i think it's limited enough as to not be overpowering.

I also liked the idea of a rogue/caster esentualy using "use magic device' on his own brain to eke out a few more spells per day. To be honest, as i was designing this new Trickster, i couldn't really think of another special abuility that "fit" and gave them the extra "umph" to make them a worthwhile prestige class. A friend of mine suggested this and i liked the idea. it seems to fit pretty well IMO.

I also compensated for the loss of spell power by giving them a better hit die and base attack, and the loss of arcane spell failure means they wont be useless in combat. Good point on the shields tho, i'll be sure to add that in.

And finaly, yes, i hated impromptu sneak attack. it just seemed like a dumb idea and a potentialy very dangerious one. I threw it out right away.

 

[Technik4]

Ok we agree on the power of a 20th wizard should only be in the hands of a 20th level wizard. Now, where do you think the power of a 20th level wiz/rog should be?

Personally, without prc, I would use the following build:
Rog3/Wiz17

This gives me access to 9th level spells, a little bit of rogue-ish skills, evasion, uncanny dodge, and +2d6 sneak attack. If you take it at 1st level, its optimum, skill points galore.

Now, with a prc that offers half-casting, it becomes:
Rog4/Wiz10/Prc6

You need at least 4 rogue levels to fulfill the skill requirements of the arcane trickster. Half-casting puts us at 13th level caster, or 7th level spells, at 20th level.

The question is, what did I get out of those 6 prc levels to make it worth my while to give up 8th and 9th level spells. If the answer is 12 more skill points and +2d6 sneak attack, then I have to say the prc wizard got ripped off.

IMO, the only way to even reasonably begin a prc to fill in the shoes of a multiclasser is to at least give abilities at the same rate they multiclass. That would be:

1 +1 Spellcasting
2 +1d6 Sneak Attack
3 +1 Spellcasting
4 +1d6 Sneak Attack
5 +1 Spellcasting
6 +1d6 Sneak Attack
7 +1 Spellcasting
8 +1d6 Sneak Attack
9 +1 Spellcasting
10 +1d6 Sneak Attack

Then we add in ranged legedermain, basically this is one of the things the multiclass rog/wiz is giving up uncanndy dodge progression, high level rogue abilities, high level spells, and familiar progression for, so it had better be good.

1 +1 Spellcasting, Ranged Legerdemain 1/day
2 +1d6 Sneak Attack
3 +1 Spellcasting
4 +1d6 Sneak Attack
5 +1 Spellcasting, Ranged Legerdemain 2/day
6 +1d6 Sneak Attack
7 +1 Spellcasting
8 +1d6 Sneak Attack
9 +1 Spellcasting, Ranged Legerdemain 3/day
10 +1d6 Sneak Attack

We are going to adopt the bardic proficiency to cast spells in light armor (medium armor really is just redundant, as no self-respecting rogue would be caught dead in chainmail or breastplate), which ideally we would want to give as a reward at 1st level. Fortunately, we can bump ranged legerdemain progression 1 level and everything still works.

1 +1 Spellcasting, Arcane Armor Proficiency
2 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 1/day
3 +1 Spellcasting
4 +1d6 Sneak Attack
5 +1 Spellcasting
6 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 2/day
7 +1 Spellcasting
8 +1d6 Sneak Attack
9 +1 Spellcasting
10 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 3/day

Now we have 2 good reasons to take this prc over straight multiclassing. Lets analyze the "other stuff" we get. Higher Hit Die (d6 over d6/d4 hybrid), fewer skills (multiclass averages 10 per 2 levels, prc averages 8), but a consolidated skill list makes it nice so that all those skills can be maxed. The saving throws also come out slightly better, as the prc has 2 strong saves. So those are some nice bonuses going on behind the scene.

But so far we've not provided a really big "draw" to the class. My earlier analysis pointed out that a wizard/rogue with wizard inclinations is only going to take 6 level, so they can get that bonus feat as a wizard, and generally more spells. A rogue-inclined rog/wiz may go as high as 7 in the prc (denying himself the 4th wizard level) but will want to stay a rogue at least 10 level to score a nice high-level rogue ability.

Clearly, this prc needs just such a high-level incentive for both wizards and rogues to stick around and not go back to their respective classes. He already has some neat things he can do a couple times per day, how about improving those still and silent feats you don't like? Maybe something along the lines of "the arcane trickster may alter a spell with still or silent spell without raising its level a number of times equal to his/her class level + spellcasting mod. If this application is spontaneous, it does not increase the casting time of the spell".

Before you think how thats too powerful, lets look at the situation. A wizard or a sorc cannot do this to that many spells, certainly not all of them, and it wouldnt be beneficial to at any rate. Still and silent are most useful for getting around the following: arcane spell failure, casting while grappled/tied up, or possibly to conceal that you are casting a spell entirely. And this isn't just an ability granted early, this is the carrot to make pcs want to go all the way at the cost of higher level spells or higher level rogue abilities.

1 +1 Spellcasting, Arcane Armor Proficiency
2 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 1/day
3 +1 Spellcasting
4 +1d6 Sneak Attack
5 +1 Spellcasting
6 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 2/day
7 +1 Spellcasting
8 +1d6 Sneak Attack
9 +1 Spellcasting, Stealth Casting
10 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 3/day

We'll place it at 9th level, still just out of range for both of the earlier builds to maximize their potential. A rogue could go minimum on wizard levels, but then stealth casting wouldn't be an issue as the spells would be extremely low level. Similarly, the wizard who goes minimum on rogue levels is giving up a lot of spellcasting for it and will top out at 11th level caster (barely obtaining 6th level spells).

Thats my take. I don't like youre extended casting mechanic because it unfairly favors sorcerors, and is a slightly strange mechanic. Being able to use other people's magic is powerful as written, getting to keep a slot is too much, imo.

This prc doesn't get the best things of both classes, but it provides a very solid multiclassed prestige class that characters may find themselves taking quite a few levels of, or only a couple.

Technik

 

[Kenmis]

Minor Rewordings

Thanks for your suggestions, this is just the kind of analysis i needed (and why i came to these boards).

I had originaly designed this class more in favor of the rogue than the wizard, for two reasons.

1) I just like rogues better. Heh. I myself have never been a fan of most of the spellcasting classes (too much bookkeeping, and this comming from a DM), so i used this as an opportunity to try to understand the design behind them better, and become more familer with them.

2) for my campaign, a player wanted to play an arcane trickster, but i had serious problems with the PrC as it was. Since this new player was going to be replacing my Rogue, i put things in a pro-rogue slant because that was going to be the main focus of this particular player.

We are going to adopt the bardic proficiency to cast spells in light armor (medium armor really is just redundant, as no self-respecting rogue would be caught dead in chainmail or breastplate), which ideally we would want to give as a reward at 1st level.

Yes, i had this at first level but didn't word it as such. good catch. As for medium armor, i agree, most will be in light armor, but i don't think there's any real harm in giving them medium, too.

how about improving those still and silent feats you don't like? Maybe something along the lines of "the arcane trickster may alter a spell with still or silent spell without raising its level a number of times equal to his/her class level + spellcasting mod. If this application is spontaneous, it does not increase the casting time of the spell".

Ok, first i'm not quite sure what you mean by "spellcasting mod"? Also, i'm assuming you mean "a number of times PER DAY equal to..." correct? This seem to give a advantage to spontanious spellcasters. As i read it, wizards would have to prepare it as per the feat, which severly limits it's usefullness. How are they going to know when they need it still, or when they need it silent? I was hoping to give them that flexibuility.

I take it you think making it both Still AND Silent is too powerfull? I can see how you would say that, my line of thinking was along the lines of "more rogue, less wizard" so the stealth casting would mostly apply to buffs and other non-offensive spells that the caster would want to get off in order to be more sneaky.

Overall, i like these suggestions, and will probably make quite a few of the changes. I like giving them stealth casting at a later level, and making it a times per day that grows with them in a slightly less arbitrary way. Tho, if i'm readin this right, they'll be able to do it a minimum of 9 times per day, right? Doesn't that seem like a lot? Of course if it's either/or instead of both, that might be a little bit more balancing, and on top of that they don't get the extended casting any more. Hmmm, something i'll have to consider more.

I guess my main concern is if you get rid of extended casting, you're thinning out a PrC that was already pretty sparce on the special abuilties side. The extra sneak attack damage and more stealth casting is nice, but is it enough?

 

[Technik4]

Sorry, I never fully wrote-up Stealth Casting the way I should have.

Stealth casting: An arcane trickster may forgoe the level adjustment associated with the feats Still Spell or Silend Spell (if the arcane trickster has the feat) a number of times per day equal to their arcane trickster level + their main spellcasting ability modifier. Using this ability does not increase the spell-casting time if you are a spontaneous caster. It requires 1 use to Still or Silent a spell, or 3 uses to Still and Silent a spell. Casters who prepare spells can therefore prepare spells without adjusting the level, and spontaneous casters must keep track of these uses per day.

For instance, a wizard may prepare a Stilled Silent Dimension Door spell as a 4th level spell, using 3 stealth casting uses. He may also prepare it as a 5th level spell, using 1 use, or if he does not wish to use stealth casting, as a 6th level spell. A sorceror may modify her spells on the fly, but as she uses more spells it will be tricky to decide when to use them.


Further in the wiz vs sor debate, dont forget that the wizard can take Still and Silent with his bonus feats, whereas a sorceror must use her character feats.

Also, concerning the Arcane Armor Proficiency, since neither rogues nor wizards have medium armor proficiency, it seems out of place, although it may be nice for a bard.

As far as whether its balanced? I think so. It is better than taking 10wiz/10rog levels or 10sor/10rog levels. Also as I showed in my post above, it provides compelling reasons to go "all the way" or to dip in for a few levels. Make sure to point out some of the things going on under the hood (more max skills, while having less skills total, means the ones you use are more powerful), better HD, better saves. I'd say thats the way to go if you dont want to give casting every level.

Technik

 

[Kenmis]

Still and Silent Spell

An arcane trickster may forgoe the level adjustment associated with the feats Still Spell or Silend Spell (if the arcane trickster has the feat)

So the caster has to have these feats already? I definitly planned on giving it to them anyway, especialy since this would a a high-level abuility.

Also, concerning the Arcane Armor Proficiency, since neither rogues nor wizards have medium armor proficiency, it seems out of place, although it may be nice for a bard.

Good point, and i'll probably keep it in just in case a bard does decide to use this PrC. Certainly can't hurt.

 

[Chacal]

I like this version, except the full sneak attack progression.
I also ty to avoid front loaded PrC. Taking just one level of this PrC is too much useful for a wiz: D6, 2gd saves, +2pts skills with a good list and arcane armor(light).
I would just remove the 1st +1D6 sneak attack (from the 2nd level) and move the 1st +1spellprogression up to the 2nd level.
This way, the first level of the PrC is rather weak, and might need a small power (free silent spell feat or a +2 to move silently and hide if the feat is already known).
In some PrC, I've separated caster level progression and spell progression. For this one I would give +1CL at 1st level and +1prog at 2nd.
Not having front loaded PrC reinforces the idea that it's not an "insta-boost" path. It simulate a sort of learning curve to the prestige

Chacal

 

[yennico]

We are going to adopt the bardic proficiency to cast spells in light armor (medium armor really is just redundant, as no self-respecting rogue would be caught dead in chainmail or breastplate), which ideally we would want to give as a reward at 1st level. Fortunately, we can bump ranged legerdemain progression 1 level and everything still works.

1 +1 Spellcasting, Arcane Armor Proficiency
2 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 1/day
3 +1 Spellcasting
4 +1d6 Sneak Attack
5 +1 Spellcasting
6 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 2/day
7 +1 Spellcasting
8 +1d6 Sneak Attack
9 +1 Spellcasting
10 +1d6 Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain 3/day

I do recommend to change the position of ranged ledgerdemain 1/day and Arcane Armor Proficiency. IMHO Arcane Armor Proficiency is a too big advantage at 1st level PrC, some might think about taking only one level of this PrC for getting the Arcane Armor Proficiency ability.

Clearly, this prc needs just such a high-level incentive for both wizards and rogues to stick around and not go back to their respective classes. He already has some neat things he can do a couple times per day, how about improving those still and silent feats you don't like? Maybe something along the lines of "the arcane trickster may alter a spell with still or silent spell without raising its level a number of times equal to his/her class level + spellcasting mod. If this application is spontaneous, it does not increase the casting time of the spell".

I gave my version of the arcane trickster at level 9 PrC the ability to cast silent spells without using a higher level slot.

Thats my take. I don't like youre extended casting mechanic because it unfairly favors sorcerors, and is a slightly strange mechanic. Being able to use other people's magic is powerful as written, getting to keep a slot is too much, imo.

I agree with Technik4.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[yennico]

Re: Minor Rewordings

I had originaly designed this class more in favor of the rogue than the wizard, for two reasons.

1) I just like rogues better. Heh. I myself have never been a fan of most of the spellcasting classes (too much bookkeeping, and this comming from a DM),

I know what you mean with too much bookkeeping I played a wizard till level 17th.

Arcane Tricksters can either be seen as Rogues who use magic to improve their Rogue skills or as Wizards who use their roguish skills to acquire more spells, magic items, etc.

My Arcane Trickster PrC is a Wizard who uses his roguish skills to raid spellbooks, magic items, etc.

Just my 2 cents
yennico