My Arcane Trickster 2.0

[yennico]

Sorry, I never fully wrote-up Stealth Casting the way I should have.
Technik

I really like your Stealth casting ability, but I think Still Spell is a nearly useless feat. I played a wizard up to level 17 with among his feats silent and still spell. I never had any use for the still spell feat. My wizard does not wear armor, so no spell failure applies.

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[the Jester]

IMO, the only way to even reasonably begin a prc to fill in the shoes of a multiclasser is to at least give abilities at the same rate they multiclass. That would be:

1 +1 Spellcasting
2 +1d6 Sneak Attack
3 +1 Spellcasting
4 +1d6 Sneak Attack
5 +1 Spellcasting
6 +1d6 Sneak Attack
7 +1 Spellcasting
8 +1d6 Sneak Attack
9 +1 Spellcasting
10 +1d6 Sneak Attack

I really like your analysis here, but there's one big problem: a multiclassed rog/wiz won't gain sneak attack every other level, it'll be every 4th level (he'd gain them every other level if he was a straight rogue).

 

[Technik4]

Ah, good point Jester. So the multiclasser looks like this:

1 +1 Spellcasting
2 +1d6 Sneak Attack
3 +1 Spellcasting
4
5 +1 Spellcasting
6 +1d6 Sneak Attack
7 +1 Spellcasting
8
9 +1 Spellcasting
10 +1d6 Sneak Attack


I think my analysis is still on point, but the class is more powerful than it at first appears.

Technik

 

[Technik4]

Re: Chacal and Yennico

Part of the balancing between what this class gains at first level and what other prcs gain at first level is behind the scenes.

To qualify you *must* have 4 levels of rogue (or bard), that right there is denying yourself 9th level spells. If a sorceror or wizard wanted to dip in for 1 level, I would certainly let them. They continue spellcasting progression (because my proposed 1st level adds spellcasting) and they get Arcane Armor Proficiency. The catch is they are still 4 levels behind their contemporaries.

Is it a little front-loaded? Perhaps, but it also depends on how easy you let PCs into Prcs.

Technik

 

[yennico]

Re: Chacal and Yennico

Part of the balancing between what this class gains at first level and what other prcs gain at first level is behind the scenes.

To qualify you *must* have 4 levels of rogue (or bard), that right there is denying yourself 9th level spells. If a sorceror or wizard wanted to dip in for 1 level, I would certainly let them. They continue spellcasting progression (because my proposed 1st level adds spellcasting) and they get Arcane Armor Proficiency. The catch is they are still 4 levels behind their contemporaries.

A good point. But I´m not really convinced.

If a spellcaster made the decision to take a second class (rogue), he gains at first level of the rogue many benefits and losing nearly nothing.
If you have decided for your spellcaster to take several levels rogue then you certainly will take three levels. Your spellcaster will not forsake his 9th level spells and gains:
more hps (d6 vs d4), better BAB, better reflex save, Sneak Attack +2D6 (very good on ray spells), more skill points, more class skills and at least the best: Uncanny Dodge (nearly always Dex bonus to AC)
IMHO the benefits a spellcasterX/rogue3 gains are worth loosing the three spellcaster level.

If a spellcasterX/rogue3 then has the chance to gain one spellcaster level and arcane armor for the next two levels the PC gain (more hps, skill points, etc as a spellcaster)), I certainly will take this advantage.

How about a rogue 4 who takes as second class spellcaster ?

Just my 2 cents
yennico

 

[Technik4]

Well either way really, the character is taking a hit just by multiclassing. IMO, the only multiclassing that is truly equivelent is when you don't involve spellcasting. For instance a Ftr10/Rog10 is about as powerful as either a Ftr20 or a Rog20. The same cannot be said for a Ftr10/Wiz10 or a Brd10/Rog10. Basically, when you dilute spellcasting while you may not become less powerful at the moment you multiclass, you will be later on.

The regular Arcane Trickster requires 4 levels of Rogue, not 3, so the "cost" of getting some cool abilities is to deny yourself 9th level spells (unless you plan on going into epic levels, but even then your epic spellcasting will be delayed). There are other hidden "costs" as well, usually a wizard will have a good dex and a good int, a sorceror will have a good dex and a good cha, but rogues need dex, int, and cha to excel.

As for the rogue who decides to take Arcane Trickster, he must first have 5 levels of wizard, 6 levels of sorceror, or 7 levels of bard. By that time, he may have more levels of spellcasting than he does of rogue!

The spellcaster who gains all of those benefits also loses 3 levels of spellcasting, 3 levels of spells known or written, 3 points on his caster level, and 3 points on his spell penetration. In 3.5 it will appear to be even worse because some effects are tied to caster level. For instance to dispel a certain magic you must cast dispel magic at 10th level lets say, well by multiclassing for 4 levels, you won't be able to do that for a while.

Technik