My Beef with Social Skills

iwatt said:
Oh. The semantics game. Is it the fact that I used the words "you think" that bothers you? I'll try to reeemphasize. All I use these skills is to tell them how they perceive the world. Whatever else they do is in their hands.

I wasn't trying to trip you up with semantics, the way I read it both the first time and (as you requested) upon rereading your statement was you telling a player what his character thinks.

From reading your statement I didn't get the impression you gave out perceptions, just 'I tell them they think this way and they act accordingly' which sounds like giving directions on how they should play their characters.

Which can be fine and can be fun but is not my preferred play style as either a DM or a player.
 

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Barak said:
When you get to the bottom of it, even giving a bonus/penalty depending on what the player says is technically unfair.

Character creation and combat tactics are also unfair in the same way. Some people are going to be better at it than others. Same with figuring out plots, remembering NPCs, knowledge about a game world, etc. Give two people the same character sheet and they will have different levels of success at different in game tasks.

Lucky rolls would also seem to be unfair in the same way. Two characters with equal stats, two different results.
 

Raven Crowking:

The make the analogy between Bluff and Search, it'd be like this:

- "I search the the room" vs. "I bluff a guard"

- "I search the fireplace" vs. "I bluff the guard that seems youngest and with the less used equipment".

In both cases I'd lower the DC because the player is narrowing down his action (searching a smaller area or bluffing the most inexperienced guard*).

* - Caveat: of course, the youngest-looking guard might actually be a by-the-book type, just like the fireplace might be trapped.
 

I'm sure this has been said before.. but I believe that the skills are a necessary evil of the game. I would not want to be penalized because I as a person am rather shy in real life and I'm playing a charismatic, lady-killing Swashbuckler. The social skills are there because I am not my character; he can do things that I cannot. You wouldn't penalize me in character because I'm an overweight, nonathletic guy and my character is a barbarian who puts bodybuilders to shame, would you? Why should I be penalized for social interactions then?

In my group, we mix the two opinions together. For example, if I want to use diplomacy on a guard; I'll do a bit of roleplaying and then the DM asks me for a Diplomacy check or, more likely, rolls it in secret. Most of the social checks are rolled in secret, so if I Sense Motive, the DM might tell me "Well, he seems trustworthy" in which case I act accordingly.

Just my two cents.

Regards,
Wayne
 

Having mulled over everyone's opinions for a few days after starting this, I think I've come to a better understanding of the fundamental problem. I see where both Raven and Kraus & Hussar are coming from, and at this point (if I had a different gaming group) would be highly inclined to test out some of the advice of pro-social skill posters. In the event that removing the social skills proves to be a mistake, I'll add them back and have taken some notes on how to make them work better.

That said, the fundamental problem seems to be two-fold. One is the discrepancy in ease of simulation between the top 3 attributes and the bottom 3. Irl, I'm about 5'6" and weigh a 110 lbs. I've been that height and weight for over a decade now and it suits me just fine. However, roleplaying a character that is larger, stronger, healthier, or more agile than -I- am is almost automatic. Let's pretend that combat isn't part of the game to avoid that arguement prematurely. If my character is strong and physically resilient, it translates very easily into good athletic skills, high carrying capacity, strong resistance to physical harm and disease. He generally volunteers to carry heavy things, probably takes the lead in physically dangerous situations, and is probably on the town's fire-fighting brigade. He plays out as much more physically intrepid than I would be simply because I, and therefore he by extension, know he's capable of handling physical situations. If I want to get more deeply into the character's role, those physical qualities could certainly have an effect on his psyche. Perhaps he's careful about his size, aware of the fact that it makes him very capable of hurting other people around him if he's not careful and doesn't maintain control of his temper, or perhaps he's a bully.

The bottom 3 attributes aren't as easy to simulate. Intelligence is aptly named and from a mechanical stand-point it simulates rather well. Knowledge checks or checks involving mechanical or systematic operations (e.g. Disable Device and Search) suit the ability just fine. A wizard's spell-casting is properly dictated by Intelligence because it represents his systematic approach to magic, that this phrase with this gesture logically leads to this magical result. However, it's difficult to properly roleplay a character who is dumber (at least substantially dumber) than the player is; it's difficult to keep the players native intelligence from intruding on the character. On the other hand, it's nigh impossible to roleplay a character that's substantially smarter than the player. How does the mind of someone with a 16+ Int score work exactly? What about creatures (or characters with stat-boost items) with an Int score in the mid-high 20s? How can your average player (probably smarter than your average joe off the street) play out that level of clarity in reasoning and logic? Wisdom, as defined by the RAW, is easier to simulate because it's mostly corresponds to an all-around awareness of the world about you and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how "wise" the character is. A cleric's spell-casting is best dictated by Wisdom as it is an awareness of the will of the divine power he serves and from which his own magical ability stems.

Charisma is the stickler, though. It's just as well-defined as the other two, and in a purely mechanistic game it functions well. A lie by a PC will result in a Bluff check opposed by the other party's Sense Motive check; the result of those rolls dictates the outcome. Sorcerer magic, being an intrinsic part of the sorcerer himself, is appropriately tied to Charisma by showing his ability to project himself onto the world around him. Perhaps unfortunately, as this thread shows, few people play a purely mechanistic game because D&D is, at some level, about sitting around a table and talking. That talking can get in the way. While I appreciate where the notion to get a description of what the PC is trying to do and then providing a modifier to the check based on plausibility (pretending to be the king vs pretending to be a visiting dignitary to borrow someone else's example), you don't do that with other skills or checks because you don't have to. What do you do about a player who's neither silver-tongued nor particularly crafty? Do you give his character an Intelligence check to come up with a good lie, and then use that as the basis for your bonus on the Bluff? A Jump check functions under the assumption that the character gives it his all, and a Search check does as well. Does the Bluff skill merely describe a character's ability to make a lie sound believable, or does it also indicate his ability to select and tell a convincing lie? It seems like the designers set up the functions of Charisma to work like the functions of any other ability (and I don't have a problem with that as it only makes sense), assuming that most groups would simply use them as written, just as they do all other skill checks, but the pure roleplay parts of the game get in the way of the rules (or vice versa depending on your PoV), and it just so happens that the social skills are the ones that turn up in those scenes most frequently.

As an aside, one of my players works as a personal protection officer (read: liscensed bodyguard), which means he gets paid to assess threats. He hates the way Intimidate keys off Charisma because perceptible threat in another person is an issue of "totality of circumstance." It's an issue of how big the person is, how fast and agile he appears, and how healthy. How intelligent or shrewd does he look, and does he seem observant. His arguement is that Charisma should be a derived stat, though he admittedly has never come up with a satisfactory way to do this.

The other problem is simply an issue of design assumption. The general view of how to play D&D, and rpgs in general, has come a long way since Chainmail, but the codified rules lag behind. The suggestions about how to award xp for good roleplaying (and it is just a suggestion, not a core-mechanic) are rather ambiguous. It's also called a bonus, leading to the assumption that the bulk of xp will still come from handling encounters. Encounters themselves are rather loosely defined, only becoming specific when dealing with encounters where combat-like rules (actual combat and traps) and resource management are involved. Theoretically, an encounter handled with skillful Diplomacy should result in less xp and probably doesn't result in any treasure (unless skillful thievery takes place as well) because there is less risk, and at the end there's no dead monster to loot. The more focused your group is on the core objective of the game (to gain xp, levels, and treasure), the less incentive there is to employ non-combat solutions to encounters. As such, it seems the abilities that lend themselves to non-combat solutions got the short-shrift design-wise, and most of those abilities are social skills. Everyone here admits that Diplomacy by the RAW is poorly written. The DCs are too low, and what you can do with it is too powerful, especially considering there's no opposed roll. How many spells can you think of in the core books that affect another character/monster and don't either require an attack roll from the caster or allow the target a saving throw? This is a pretty universal facet of design in 3.x, but where is that design elegance in Diplomacy? Most spells are written in a manner so explicit as to border on over-kill so that we will know exactly how they work, and by and large they are carefully considered to make sure they are appropriately powerful for their level. Going from 3.0 to 3.5, I would guess that more spells changed schools than received a serious overhaul because they were over or underpowered. On the other hand, the social skills were not much changed at all. Innuendo got shunted into Bluff, the NPC reaction table was placed in the PHB with Diplomacy so players could make more informed decisions about the skill, and that's about it. We didn't get anything about how to better set up Gather Information tables, like someone very generously displayed above, no revision to Diplomacy's many faults, and not so much as a sidebar about how to handle the gap between social skill check results and player meta-gaming, which I got for the asking here and in abundance. Why not? Because for the core-game, played by core-mechanics, with the core-objective in mind, the social skills are little more than fluff. They exist for rogues and clerics with too many skill points, to give bards (a 5th wheel character class if ever there was one) a unique niche, and for those situations where the PCs hit an encounter they can't win through combat. It is precisely because so many of us don't play the game in quite that manner that these skills become problematic.
 

ZSutherland said:
The bottom 3 attributes aren't as easy to simulate. Intelligence is aptly named and from a mechanical stand-point it simulates rather well. ...However, it's difficult to properly roleplay a character who is dumber (at least substantially dumber) than the player is; it's difficult to keep the players native intelligence from intruding on the character. On the other hand, it's nigh impossible to roleplay a character that's substantially smarter than the player.

Actually, I started this thread specifically to look at ways to help a player portray a character more capable in a social/mental stat than the player is. It might be worth your read:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=20768.0

Observation versus Conclusion
There's a sub-text discussion going on in this thread about whether "He seems trustworthy" is an observatory statement or a conclusion being imposed upon the player. Obviously it's a vague abstraction that glosses over minute details for the sake of playability, but I don't think it's important whether we define it as observation or conclusion. Instead consider: Is it useful to the player?
Personally I find "he seems trustworthy" to be only minimally useful. After all, I'm going to decide whether the NPC seems trustworthy or not based on how he interacts with his friends, whether he does what he says he will, how he keeps his oaths, whether his story holds up to the facts I have, and what others say about him. Perhaps I also have an intuitive sense that is based on body language and tone of voice cues.
Instead I would rather the GM tell in what way the NPC seems trustworthy. For example: "You meet your contact at the tavern. He walks in and immediately the barkeep barks at him about an unpaid tab. Sighing, the man rustles in his pocket and pulls out several silver coins, slapping them on the counter. The barkeep winks, 'You've never let me down once, laddie.'"
 
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wayne62682 said:
I'm sure this has been said before.. but I believe that the skills are a necessary evil of the game. I would not want to be penalized because I as a person am rather shy in real life and I'm playing a charismatic, lady-killing Swashbuckler. The social skills are there because I am not my character; he can do things that I cannot. You wouldn't penalize me in character because I'm an overweight, nonathletic guy and my character is a barbarian who puts bodybuilders to shame, would you? Why should I be penalized for social interactions then?

In my group, we mix the two opinions together. For example, if I want to use diplomacy on a guard; I'll do a bit of roleplaying and then the DM asks me for a Diplomacy check or, more likely, rolls it in secret. Most of the social checks are rolled in secret, so if I Sense Motive, the DM might tell me "Well, he seems trustworthy" in which case I act accordingly.

Just my two cents.

Regards,
Wayne

The short answer is that in a LARP physically out of shape players do poorer at physical game interactions like jumping up onto a table, even if they want to play an agile swashbuckler. Whether social and mental skill mechanics are used for things players can do is determined by choice of play style. Does the DM want a player to do the interaction, does he want character mechanics and dice rolls to handle it, or does he want a mixture?

A player can't physically interact with anything in a D&D game. A player can socially and mentally interact with game elements. A player can talk first person as his character and interact with the DM when the DM is roleplaying an NPC. A player can roll dice to abstract the interaction or do it first person or just have it be adjudicated by the DM without rolls. Choices of what resolution mechanism to use are a play style choice. There is a choice of mechanics to resolve the situation for social interactions in D&D. For physical actions outside of a LARP the physical must be abstracted in D&D.

A non social player wanting to play a social character seems more analogous to a person with poor investigative skills wanting to play a sherlock holmes type character, or a person poor at riddles wanting to play a riddle master. If you want these game activities to be first person interactions then you stay away from game mechanics and people good at them are better than people bad at them. If you want everyone to be able to be equal at them based on character creation choices then you use game mechanics and abstract them.
 

Voadam said:
A player can't physically interact with anything in a D&D game.
You know what, I'm going to bring a pinanta of a dragon to my next game. When the PCs reach the critical scene, I'm going to take them outside, hang up the pinata, then let the players take turns with a baseball bat and blindfold them. "Ok, guys, here's the dragon. You've been blinded by its noxious fumes. Go wild!" :)
Of course, inside will be chocolate coins as a reward. ;)
 

Voadam said:
The short answer is that in a LARP physically out of shape players do poorer at physical game interactions like jumping up onto a table, even if they want to play an agile swashbuckler. Whether social and mental skill mechanics are used for things players can do is determined by choice of play style. Does the DM want a player to do the interaction, does he want character mechanics and dice rolls to handle it, or does he want a mixture?

A player can't physically interact with anything in a D&D game. A player can socially and mentally interact with game elements. A player can talk first person as his character and interact with the DM when the DM is roleplaying an NPC. A player can roll dice to abstract the interaction or do it first person or just have it be adjudicated by the DM without rolls. Choices of what resolution mechanism to use are a play style choice. There is a choice of mechanics to resolve the situation for social interactions in D&D. For physical actions outside of a LARP the physical must be abstracted in D&D.

A non social player wanting to play a social character seems more analogous to a person with poor investigative skills wanting to play a sherlock holmes type character, or a person poor at riddles wanting to play a riddle master. If you want these game activities to be first person interactions then you stay away from game mechanics and people good at them are better than people bad at them. If you want everyone to be able to be equal at them based on character creation choices then you use game mechanics and abstract them.

Voadam makes my point more succinctly than I managed it. It's all a question of what you want to abstract versus what you don't. The connotative definition of an rpg and what roleplaying is have evolved since Chainmail and early editions of D&D, where the characters were little more than avatars that allowed the players to physically interact with the imaginary game-world. Those players didn't need social skills anymore than avatars in MMOs need them. All mental and social action in game was the mental and social action of the players, and only physical action on objects and in a space that didn't exist outside everyone's shared imagination required abstraction and rules. Many rpers have moved past that definition, incorporating into the fun and challenge of an rpg the difficulty of portraying a character that isn't you, that may well make choices you wouldn't, etc. The rules have tried to incorporate that via social skills, fluff text, alignments, the Paladin's CoC, etc. but they have not quite kept pace with the players.
 

Voadam said:
I wasn't trying to trip you up with semantics, the way I read it both the first time and (as you requested) upon rereading your statement was you telling a player what his character thinks.

From reading your statement I didn't get the impression you gave out perceptions, just 'I tell them they think this way and they act accordingly' which sounds like giving directions on how they should play their characters.

Which can be fine and can be fun but is not my preferred play style as either a DM or a player.

Maybe in a way I do dictate what he thinks. BTW, I've been burned by this when used by an incompetent DM. I like to think of myself as moderately competent. ;)

Personally, what I dislike is the fact that PCs are immune to the use of these skills. I allow (and encourage actually) a lot of fast-talking and diplomacy solutions to conflict. We just prefer that the charcters be subject to the same thingd NPCs are. Applying OOC knowledge is a no no in our games. I do allow a player to convince me of their distrust (and therfore gaining a significant bonus to their Sense Motive check), as long as they do it based on in charcter reasoning. The paladin who always tries to think the best of others is different from the Con man that knows that almost everything he hears is BS. Or Dr. House and his infamous "Everybody Lies". :p


As I mentioned previosuly, I'd really like to do the roll then role accordingly technique. But years of RPGing with the same group tells me they won't enjoy that method. They usually do their impasioned speech (gaining a floating +2 bonus which makes them feel all warm and tingly inside), and then roll their check. If they botched it up because of the dice, they either use an action point or explain away their failures somehow. (caughtcrossing their fingers, they burp in the middle of their speech, etc..).

As you say, you've got to use what works with your group.
 

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