My Brawler Fighter and how fellow players complain

[FireLance]

I just don't understand why he's having such a problem with this.

Oh gosh. So many possibilities, but I'll be generous and suggest that he might have trouble visualizing the scene.

Perhaps to him, when he hears the word "rock", he doesn't see how it could be dangerous because he's thinking of a piece of stone smaller than a fist, instead of something roughly the size of a bowling ball.

Mind you, I think (although I have no practical experience either way) that even a relatively small (say, fist-sized) rock could kill (or say, smash the skull of an animated skeleton) if it hit a vital area and was thrown with sufficient force, e.g. by a half-orc fighter with an 18 or 20 Strength and probably not-too-bad Dexterity, too.

He might also be taking the approach that if such a large-sized rock had existed, the DM would have mentioned it. Or, he might take issue with another player simply declaring that such a rock existed instead of asking the DM whether or not it did, thereby infringing on what he sees as the DM's sole prerogative of defining what exists in the game world. This is more of a playstyle clash.

Or, he could be trying to impose his preferred version of reality (which may or may not be congruent with actual reality; see above) on what is essentially a shared fantasy.

Frankly, from the tone of his email, he sounds like someone who takes his gaming waaaay too seriously for me to have fun playing with him.

 

[S'mon]

""So if it wasn't a rock but let's say a handaxe or dagger(same die roll as a rock) would have been used in the same situation, would that still be "cheese?"

I was just following what the compendium says.""

A few hours later I received this email:

""No, of course not, because those are weapons that are meant to be used as such.

I know you were just following what the compendium says - the rules have nothing to do with my point. My point is that you were throwing a rock expecting the same results as you would get with a dagger. You were intentionally being silly at the expense of Mike's campaign world. He spent a lot of time planning and trying to set a theme and you interrupted everyone's immersion in that world by doing something that the rules don't say you can't do. That is the definition of cheese.

If it had been my game I would have said that's cheese and it's not allowed and we would have moved on. But you put Mike in a bad position because he was focused on getting his story across and making sure we were seeing all the cues and hints to keep the interaction moving. The reason I'm upset is because we had to bring the game to a screeching halt to look up a rule to see if you could actually deal damage with a thrown rock, when we all know you can't. Not because the rules don't say you can't but because we all know it's cheesy.

However, this is Mike's game and I will defer to whatever he decides. I just felt insulted as a DM and I had to say something.""

This guy sounds like a total prick. I'm not sure I'd be able to play alongside such a jerk. Can you talk to your DM Mike, show him this email, and get his input? Hopefully he'll be equally outraged and ask the jerk to cool it.

BTW it's always the DM's choice whether to pause the game to look up a rule, or just make an improvised ruling. The best ruling, certainly in 4e, is that a thrown rock is an effective improvised weapon. Rocks were probably the first thrown weapons in human history, and are still used today to inflict injury and death. He could also be mean and say there were no rocks to hand, if that was plausible.

 

[Dannager]

This guy sounds like a total prick.

This.

Heck, if you end up deciding that this guy isn't worth maintaining a friendship with (and if I were in your position, I'd be giving that some serious thought), point him in the direction of this thread so that he can hear what a bunch of uninvolved people familiar with the situation think of his decision to be insulted.

If it were me, I would follow these steps:

1. Open up your PHB to page 219, your Heroes of the Fallen Lands to page 332, or your Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms to page 334.

2. Point to the "Sling" entry in the weapons chart. Make sure he reads that line. Especially the part where it deals more damage than you did.

3. Repeat after me:

"That's a sling. It's a rock propelled at a target. It deals more damage and is more accurate than my character throwing a rock. You're being a total dick, you're berating someone for doing something that is reasonable, creative, intelligent, and well within the rules. You will kindly shut the hell up about what my character can and cannot do in the future. And you will send a sincere apology email for your behavior to everyone in our group - apologizing to me for your outrageous and insulting attitude, and to our group for inciting needless drama and wasting everyone's time."

And, again, if none of this gets the point across, have him visit this thread.

The player in question clearly has some behavioral issues - issues that make the game significantly less enjoyable for other players and create drama. This needs to be dealt with, because if it's not I can guarantee you that things will only get worse.

 

[Mummolus]

I had a DM once who had us fight in meticulously clean dungeons, because he didn't like the idea of us being able to pick up and throw a rock at any given creature.

Of course, playing in our campaigns, he's always the first to grab for random debris to throw.

Some people are just ridiculous.

 

[samursus]

Just wanted to point out:

... - the rules have nothing to do with my point. My point is that you were throwing a rock expecting the same results as you would get with a dagger. You were intentionally being silly at the expense of Mike's campaign world. He spent a lot of time planning and trying to set a theme and you interrupted everyone's immersion in that world by doing something that the rules don't say you can't do. ... [emphasis mine]

The rules are explicit in this matter.

[sblock=PHB pg. 219] Improvised one-handed ranged weapon
Cost: — gp
Damage: 1d4
Range: 5/10
Weight: 1 lb.

Improvised weapons include anything you happen to pick up, from a rock to a chair. [/sblock]

Other than that, yeah, dude has issues.

 

[Pentius]

Yeah, this second email brings it to the point where, unless you left out taking a crap on the hood of his car, he's just being a prick. This isn't even about something the rules don't say you can't do, this is about him taking issue with a creative and reasonable tactic that the rules specifically say you can do.

"The player in question clearly has some behavioral issues - issues that make the game significantly less enjoyable for other players and create drama. This needs to be dealt with, because if it's not I can guarantee you that things will only get worse." -Dannager, right up there.

 

[Dannager]

Just a quick note: no matter how tempting it might be, do not respond to his "We all know rocks don't deal any damage," brain fart by throwing a rock at his head.

D&D doesn't need to be in any more topical police procedural episodes.

 

[Saracenus]

I sent him an email directly:

""So if it wasn't a rock but let's say a handaxe or dagger(same die roll as a rock) would have been used in the same situation, would that still be "cheese?"

I was just following what the compendium says.""

A few hours later I received this email:

""No, of course not, because those are weapons that are meant to be used as such.

I know you were just following what the compendium says - the rules have nothing to do with my point. My point is that you were throwing a rock expecting the same results as you would get with a dagger. You were intentionally being silly at the expense of Mike's campaign world. He spent a lot of time planning and trying to set a theme and you interrupted everyone's immersion in that world by doing something that the rules don't say you can't do. That is the definition of cheese.

If it had been my game I would have said that's cheese and it's not allowed and we would have moved on. But you put Mike in a bad position because he was focused on getting his story across and making sure we were seeing all the cues and hints to keep the interaction moving. The reason I'm upset is because we had to bring the game to a screeching halt to look up a rule to see if you could actually deal damage with a thrown rock, when we all know you can't. Not because the rules don't say you can't but because we all know it's cheesy.

However, this is Mike's game and I will defer to whatever he decides. I just felt insulted as a DM and I had to say something.""

There is so much wrong with what your fellow player is saying that a picture is definitely worth a 1,000 words:

I would also start sharpening your claws...

​

Because your "friend" is gonna pull this again because your play styles are diametrically opposed...

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My Two Coppers,
​

​

 

[DracoSuave]

Dear god. Where to start...

If you have a group that pisses and moans that you're using a subpar attack, and that you're 'taking advantage of the system' by doing a subpar attack...

Well first, they need to get their heads out of their rears. It's on thing to piss and moan when the player does something that is game unbalancing and ends their fun too quickly. It's another thing entirely to piss and moan because someone's doing something cheesy that's the equivalent of tickling the enemy with a wet noodle.

Secondly, you're a Strength dude. Dex (tho obviously not terrible) isn't your primary, so there's whining over very small amounts of damage. At least you didn't use it with a power!

This sounds like a terrible group dynamic. There might be background we don't know about, we might not. But there's one thing for certain: Your group sucks, and you're better off not being in it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

1) Point out to Sir Prickalot that the thrown rock is one of man's earliest weapons, and that even in these modern times, every year, there are numerous incidents in which people go to the ER with serious- occasionally fatal- head injuries suffered by being struck in the head or chest by a baseball. And in riots in the Middle East (and other areas) thrown rocks and bricks result in severe injuries to police. Again, including fatalities.

And those people have helmets and/or other protective devices like riot shields and body armor.

2) You did a subpar attack 100% within the rules, so show him the attack...and how much worse it could have been if it was usable with your primary stats...and/or a power.

3) Feel free to tell him this story from a 3.5 campaign in which I was a participant:

The Battle of the Brutal Slaughter of the Harpies

We were attacked by Harpies, and the quick-thinking Druid hit them with an Entangle as they did a strafing run through some foliage- snagged them all!

That was when the dice went sour.

We only had a few PCs with ranged weaponry- a guy with a bow, a guy with a throwing hammer, one with a sling, and the Wiz had a dagger.

The guy with the Hammer is venturing into the area of the Entangle to retrieve his hammer and the Wiz' dagger.

Most of the to-hit rolls were low. When we did hit, no attack did more than 3HP damage. We finish off the first Harpy just as the Entangle is starting to expire...

So the Druid does Entangle #2...and our futility continues. The dice continue to stay as low as a soldier under fire.

The guy with the Hammer is, by now, having to venture into the area of the Entangle to retrieve arrows that have missed. The PC with the sling is now using rocks.

Harpy #2 is near death but still fighting and Harpy #3 is untouched when Entangle #2 is expiring, so the Druid pops Entangle #3.

My PC and the hammer-thrower are apologizing to the Harpies- in character- for the cruel deaths that we are inflicting upon them...especially after the hammer-thrower retrieved the Wizard's dagger out of the still-living Harpy#2 so the Wizard could throw it again. But he doesn't leave the Entangle area until after he stabs the dying Harpy with that dagger to finish it off.

By now, all of the arrows have been used, either striking the Harpies or being broken downrange. EVERYONE ELSE IS THROWING ROCKS.

The last Harpy dies just before Entangle #3 does.

All of this time, our DM has been flabbergasted- absolutely red faced and flustered- at the action. "F$%^&ing Entangle! That spell is broken!" *rant*rant*rant*

To which the Druid's player huffily responded "Well, it was either that or Create Food & Water! The Harpies could have had a meal and a bath!"

LOLs abounded.