My Brawler Fighter and how fellow players complain

[AdmundfortGeographer]

". . . Trying to get away with something silly because the book doesn't say you can't is offensive to me as a DM."​

What do you think?

We must be missing something. Because for someone to cavalierly toss out he's "offended" (srsly!? offended!) over this? Seems like playing the shirt-rending victimhood card.

Uh oh, he's offended, better step back, you're going to cause the sensitive flower to wilt.

Offended . . . by the intended rules.

 

[Spatula]

Was this email from the "another player" mentioned previously, or the DM? Your post is not clear to me on that account.

You're not wrong, according the rules. The email, if real, is definitely very over the top. Since weapons mainly exist to be used in attacks, using a weapon from the rule book to make an attack is certainly not cheesy. What else would improvised weapons be used for? Now, whether the rock in question qualifies as an improvised weapon or not is up to the DM.

And of course, a battleaxe would do 1d10+Str damage, with an extra +2 to hit, plus bonuses from magic or feats, etc. Which is probably a lot better for your fighter than 1d4+Dex damage with no to-hit bonus.

Now, you and/or the emailer may have handled the situation poorly from a social perspective...

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't know what inordinate advantage you are supposed to be gaining by being able to do a little extra damage with a thrown rock.

You're right, of course, but being right doesn't always help when you've got a drama queen/control freak/overly sensitive DM.

What might help is this: Pick your battles.

Is it absolutely vital to you that your table adhere to the RAW?

Or can you let the DM have her little despotic leadership for now?

Maybe you can take over DMing in a few months, if you'd like.

My usual situation where a DM is wrong (intentionally or not) about the rules is to say, "Hey, the rules say X, if you want to do it by them, but if not, it's your game, dude." Sometimes the DM will be totally fine with RAW, sometimes they'll prefer what they have in their heads, but in both cases, it IS the DM's choice.

No message board consensus or rulebook is really going to functionally change that.

You are right. Be proud of that! But unless it's really important that you be right on this, just drop it.

And maybe next time the DM is wrong, don't bother quoting RAW.

I would advise you to try and take the DMing helm later on, if you can. Often, one of the best ways to gently show DMs things like "Adding DEX mod to a thrown rock won't break your game!" is to demonstrate that it is possible yourself. That's not always possible, but it wouldn't hurt to ask. Not now, of course. Wait a few weeks.

It seems like your DM got a little testy about...something. Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with the game. Maybe the way you phrased your response he took as rude. Maybe he's just generally tetchy about D&D. Whatever the case, friendship > RAW, so shrug, maybe with a "Dude, I just thought you might like to know the actual rules, but whatever," and keep on.

Unless it's a Really Big Deal to you.

In which case, chill out, and THEN do the above. Or just ditch the group.

 

[FireLance]

We must be missing something. Because for someone to cavalierly toss out he's "offended" (srsly!? offended!) over this? Seems like playing the shirt-rending victimhood card.

Uh oh, he's offended, better step back, you're going to cause the sensitive flower to wilt.

Offended . . . by the intended rules.

Methinks he is "offended" because (in decreasing order of generosity):

1. He thinks the OP is acting like a rules lawyer.

2. He doesn't like the fact that he was publically called out for making an incorrect ruling.

3. He's the kind of guy that always has to be right, even when he's wrong.

If any of the above is true, then pointing out that a sling bullet fired from a sling is more accurate (+2 proficiency bonus) and deals more damage on average (1d6+Dex modifier) probably isn't going to help, either.

I think the OP will just have to judge for himself whether staying in the game is worth it, or a waste of time.

 

[Obryn]

I sent the entire party an email quoting the exact pages that are very specific on these rules. I was in the right that I would have dealt 1d4 + dex mod for the damage.

I'd want to see this email to put the next one in context. In general, sending the entire group an email instead of the DM is a weird thing to do when you're having problems with the game.

""As per the definition of "cheese" this is exactly case in point reinforcing what I said. Cheese happens when someone tries to "Brian-ize" the rules in such a way that they gain a huge benefit at the cost of the campaign which the DM has spent a great deal of time and preparation on. I think maybe we can coin that phrase "Adam-izing" it now too.

Being able to deal as much damage by throwing a rock as you would if you had hit them with a battleaxe flies in the face of the suspension of disbelief that Dungeons & Dragons is. Trying to get away with something silly because the book doesn't say you can't is offensive to me as a DM.""

With that said, this is kind of a red flag that the DM may be a pampered princess. Whenever you call out cheese by naming it after a player, it puts a bad taste in my mouth. The big question is, "Did you provoke him with your first email?"

He should know the correct rules, mind you - as far as I know, you were in the right there - but calling it offensive to him is just dumb.

-O

 

[Herschel]

Hit him in the head with a rock and ask "does that feel like a d4 or a d4+dex beyotch? ;-).

Seriously though, it's really minimal damage and the important thing is you were able to mark the baddie. Maybe he was upset his thug was marked, I don't know from just one side. You shouldn't have sent the e-mail to the whole group, he shouldn't have gotten upset. Brawlers give up some solid stuff to have a high enough Dex to do that build.

 

[Mika]

There is something in your DM's e-mail that makes me wonder if you left out something -- the part where he talks about a thrown rock doing more damage than a battle-axe. Assuming that your fighter has higher strength than dexterity, wouldn't 1d4 + dex mod be a lot less than the total damage (including your strength mod) that you would do with a battle axe? Between the lack of proficiency bonus and the fact that you were (or should have been) attacking with dexterity instead of strength, you would have been better off with a heavy thrown weapon, if you had one.

You didn't try to add both strength and dexterity, did you? That would have been just plain wrong.

 

[Lo-Kag]

Ok, so the player that sent me the email is not the DM for this game, but another one entirely, which is why he says he's offended.

I sent him an email directly:

""So if it wasn't a rock but let's say a handaxe or dagger(same die roll as a rock) would have been used in the same situation, would that still be "cheese?"

I was just following what the compendium says.""

A few hours later I received this email:

""No, of course not, because those are weapons that are meant to be used as such.

I know you were just following what the compendium says - the rules have nothing to do with my point. My point is that you were throwing a rock expecting the same results as you would get with a dagger. You were intentionally being silly at the expense of Mike's campaign world. He spent a lot of time planning and trying to set a theme and you interrupted everyone's immersion in that world by doing something that the rules don't say you can't do. That is the definition of cheese.

If it had been my game I would have said that's cheese and it's not allowed and we would have moved on. But you put Mike in a bad position because he was focused on getting his story across and making sure we were seeing all the cues and hints to keep the interaction moving. The reason I'm upset is because we had to bring the game to a screeching halt to look up a rule to see if you could actually deal damage with a thrown rock, when we all know you can't. Not because the rules don't say you can't but because we all know it's cheesy.

However, this is Mike's game and I will defer to whatever he decides. I just felt insulted as a DM and I had to say something.""



Mike is the DM he is referring to. And I also spoke to him about this very thing. HE told me that it wasn't cheese.

I just don't understand why he's having such a problem with this. I was having fun playing my character. And I was laughing from the fact that I could mark from across the field.

 

[Mengu]

you interrupted everyone's immersion in that world by doing something that the rules don't say you can't do. That is the definition of cheese.

I see. The rules also don't say you can't drop your pants and moon your thousand strong enemy, so I suppose that's also cheese. Hiding a loaded crossbow under the table and pulling the trigger before your adversary? Complete cheese. Using your cat-o-nine-tails to swing across a chasm in a collapsing cave? Utter cheese.

Maybe in some dictionary awesome = cheese? I don't know. I don't understand your friend. Why does someone picking up and throwing a rock hinder a story, or one's immersion into the game world? Do rocks not exist in this world? If anything, I'd say it *helps* immersion because a frustrated hero can grasp at unprecedented and yet surprisingly effective means. It is certainly in character, and an action that would get a pat on the back from me as DM or fellow player.

If it is the amount of damage you do with a thrown rock vs thrown dagger that bothers him, it's just numbers on a paper. Has nothing to do with immersion, story, etc. Conflict resolution is just rules we follow to, well, resolve conflict. And the mechanics for throwing a rock is a very far cry from cheesy. Either way, the berating seems totally uncalled for.

 

[ceiling90]

As a DM, I would have been hooting and saying "awesome". I mean, I'd ask a quick look up, and be on our merry way. I like when players try to do thing not implicitly stated by the rules or quite frankly, implicitly stated in the rules.

Good man, using rocks to mark people. You should from now on, carry a bag of pebbles.

I dunno what your friend's(?) problem is with that. I think that person needs a little alone time, and you should have a quick word with your DM. While this sounds completely silly, it makes tension at the table, and not in a good way.